Losing faith in American cars...

[SeanC]

I have always been into American cars, and wouldn't hear anything about European/Imports being better. Well, I've been driving my Aunts BMW 3 series for the past couple of days, and i'm slowly falling in love. The car handles better than anything I have ever felt, and it has a very respectable amount of power and is very fun to drive. Along with all the luxuries, the car is probably the nicest feeling car i've ever felt. I've been thinking about my Trans Am back home and am becoming disappointed in it. The handling is not even comparable...it has more body role than it knows what to do with. Yes, it is much torquier, but considering the BMW i've been driving is a fairly base model, I can only imagine what the m3s and m5s feel like.

I decided to post this rant after hearing the new advertisement for the Buick Regal, that says something about being "German Engineered". This commerical frustrates me beyond belief....Why can't we say that the new Buick Regal is "American Engineered", and engineer something equal to what BMW or any other German manufacturer does? I've been told over and over that Germans are the best automotive engineers...What are we doing wrong!? I'm so tired of a barely having an argument against people that say American cars are crap.

Sorry for the rant, but this is really bothering me. Dont get me wrong, I am still a die-hard American car lover, but its really bothering me that i'm starting to question why I am...Comments/opinions?

[LTb1ow]

*waits for GM fanboii to come brainwash you with lots and lots and lots of trivia*

[fmybody]

they are too different classes of car...

BUTTT i will say this my e30 bmw odometer is stuck at 256k miles and that has got to be at least 50k miles ago... i drive over 75 miles daily on the biotch and since ive had it (prob 6 years) ive only had to replace a water pump a fuel pump andddddd thats it lol :)

i know its old as hell but still bmw and still german engineered anddd still running strong ;)

[madness410]

i drive for a company that lets me drive brand new mercedes, bmw's, jaguars, land rovers, smart cars, audis, any kind of cars you can think of.

but man, when i hop into an american car, a challenger, camaro, corvette, equinox, traverse, theres just something about it that all those other cars dont have. they are in a class by themselves almost...not in a bad way.

what year is the bmw if you dont mind me asking were you driving? if you are driving a brand new bmw of course its going to beat the crap out of a 7 year old trans am...handling, the ride, the luxuries there have been many technological advances since then.

[sweetbmxrider]

you said you are falling in love with a german car. gm says their car is german engineered. maybe they hope you take your love for germany and try it with an american taste?


:shrug: i'd say compare that mid level beamer with a mid level caddy and see if it still sways you? i really don't know much though, just a rambler.

[12secondv6]

I used to thing American cars were great and nothing could beat them..... boy I was wrong.

I am gonna get tons of ***** by my post.... sorry guys n gals

I have had the following cars for 1 year leases
2003 Mercedes C230 coupe
2006 Mercedes E350 luxury
2007 Mercedes E350 sport
2007 Mercedes SLK280
2008 Mercedes ML320 Blutec
2009 Mercedes C300 4-matic luxury
2010 Mercedes C300 4-matic sport
2011 Mercedes C300 luxury

After putting tons of miles on them (highway, city, stop n go, and 1/4 mile racing) I really appreciate the extra quality, amazing technology, exceptional safety, and creature comforts that I cannot find in an American car.

Sure.... are there exceptions.... probably.... but even a lowly Mercedes C-Class is far superior than most american cars.


If you feel that european cars don't have the bark or power of american cars... I can understand that.

Bark.... I'll agree... you can't compare any european car's bark to the sound of a chevy big block with open headers or a mustang with flowmasters.

Power though....Mercedes has their high performance division that ranges in horsepower from mid 450 to 600+ and torque from 465 to 738

I do miss driving my trans am/ firebird because they look sooo damn agressive and bad @ss.... but the benz's are far superior in all aspects that are important to me - safety technology braking etc

While the resident GM fan boy will chime in.... I guess I'm the resident Mercedes fan boy... and I had to give my 2 cents

[BigAls87Z28]

They say German engineering because...well..its a German car, built in Germany. The Opel Insigna was the 2009 European Car Of The Year, and now that car is being brought over here as the Buick Regal till production shifts to Oshawa, Canada next April.

German cars, American cars, and Japanese cars all have their own strengths and weaknesses.
Comparing one of the worst made GM cars of the last decade to a luxury car is pretty off.
I got to drive the Camaro RS and then two weeks later I drove the CTS coupe.
Even with the CTS being heavier, still drove much better, steering was better, etc etc. But the Camaro drives worlds better then your Trans Am.
The 3 series IS the benchmark car for everyone to compare to. From the base 328i to the M3, its the basis of everyone's entry level luxury cars.
.

[LTb1ow]

American cars made in germany!!!s)??? The horror!


That's taking away amerkan jobs!

[spina74]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-PII2rSLVo

[BigAls87Z28]

I just still find it funny that you are basing current American cars off your Trans Am?
Its this mentality that still hurts the domestics. "Oh I had/know someone who had a (insert 10+ year old car 5+ years ago) and that was a big heap of ****!! So American cars are ****!"

[LTb1ow]

Even the grdeat one can't chabge atht image, who wants some kfc?

[qwikz28]

They say German engineering because...well..its a German car, built in Germany. The Opel Insigna was the 2009 European Car Of The Year, and now that car is being brought over here as the Buick Regal till production shifts to Oshawa, Canada next April.

German cars, American cars, and Japanese cars all have their own strengths and weaknesses.
Comparing one of the worst made GM cars of the last decade to a luxury car is pretty off.
I got to drive the Camaro RS and then two weeks later I drove the CTS coupe.
Even with the CTS being heavier, still drove much better, steering was better, etc etc. But the Camaro drives worlds better then your Trans Am.
The 3 series IS the benchmark car for everyone to compare to. From the base 328i to the M3, its the basis of everyone's entry level luxury cars.
.
all this is true. as much as I love the 3 series, it still has its faults though. ask n54 owners about fuel pumps and such. Like Al said, every car has their weaknesses. To be honest though, I think all the brand origins are slowly becoming similar. American cars are becoming more competitive and the Koreans are kicking butt all day now and Toyotas are killing people.

I don't know what my next purchase would be. I can't say for certain it will be American though. Although the CTS is pretty ill.

[BigRocsFirebird]

I fear WWIII is on it's way in this thread.

[BigAls87Z28]

I know you guys like to paint me as a GM-Only guy, but I understand what is what.

My point is that if you are basing your option of ALL American cars off your Trans Am, or any car designed and made before the turn of the century.

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

Everyone has their own tastes but jeez you can't compare an old performance vehicle to a new luxury sedan in any way haha.

I will say the 3 series rides/handles very well for a four door after riding in my firend's.

[qwikz28]

Our frame designs are very old. The 4th gen was really only a major update to the 3rd gen, rather than a completely new model. So not only is it old by today's standards, it was outdated when it came out (assuming you have a 4th gen of course).

[SeanC]

First, I didn't mean to start WWIII with this thread hahaha. Yes, comparing my Trans Am to a fairly new 3 series is obviously a terrible comparison (and it wasn't really my intention). I unforunately havn't had the opportunity to drive American cars like the CTS, but I'm beginning to understand why people rave about "German cars". I am extremely impressed with the 3 series...

How can I argue against people that claim German engineers are the best in the world, and that also say Americans just can't keep up? I'm in school as a mechanical engineer, and one of my huge motivations is to kill this idea that American automotive engineers just arn't as good. I guess its hard to compare German cars with American....BMW, Mercedes, etc are all high-class luxury cars, while GM/ford/etc produce a wide range of cars. I just feel like every single car German companies put out is top-notch, while some American cars are mediocre at best...I just feel like were always trying to keep up instead of being in the lead. You rarely see a test to see if a German car can keep up with an American one. Instead, the American car always seems to be the underdog compared against the mighty German car (for example - read a magazine article the other day to see if the new 5.0 could keep up with the Porche GT2). It just always seems as if were the underdog.....

[LS1Hawk]

A couple years ago I saw a statistic from one of the auto analysts that 30% of 2008 CTS owners were former BMW, Mercedes and Lexus owners or leasees, mainly because the CTS performed just as well and had a lot of features standard that the imports you would have to pay extra for. Also, I want to say back in 2007, I was invited to a Ride and Drive event held by Road & Track. The three manufacturers were Cadillac, BMW and Lexus. Each had a sedan and crossover there and you were allowed to take all of them out on a course they had set up. Many of the people there felt the Cadillacs (STS and SRX) were just as good or better than the BMW and Lexus counterparts.

[WildBillyT]

German cars, American cars, and Japanese cars all have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Yup. And you hear about good and bad examples of each. Ever heard of the first gen iDrive? LOL. I don't think the USA makes the best cars in the world, however they are the best bargains in the world, and don't deserve their rep.

Furthermore, looking at a $25-30k 10 year old Trans Am and comparing it to a newer car (really any of them, not just a BMW) is a mistake. Different time periods with different stuff. Parts get worn and old.

In my opinion, pretty much all of the Cadillacs are up there with the BMWs. I have been impressed with every new model I ride in.

[Slow-V6]

2003+ Mercedes, BMW vrs 1993-2002 Firebirds!!

[WildBillyT]

2003+ Mercedes, BMW vrs 1993-2002 Firebirds!!

I was really referring to the OP.

But regarding your post, how old exactly is the chassis design of the 4th gen cars? Go by that. By the 4th generation, the F body was a zombie platform. There, I said it.

[Slow-V6]

I was really referring to the OP.

But regarding your post, how old exactly is the chassis design of the 4th gen cars? Go by that. By the 4th generation, the F body was a zombie platform. There, I said it.

Ok. I know it was outdated. Thats the major reason why they stopped making them. My only thing is why not compare it to a Caddy then compare Luxury cars to a F-body?

[BonzoHansen]

My only thing is why not compare it to a Caddy then compare Luxury cars to a F-body?

right? why not compare it to a citation or chevette? at least compare it to a car in the same price range. A new M3 starts around $55,000.

[Blacdout96]

I was really referring to the OP.

But regarding your post, how old exactly is the chassis design of the 4th gen cars? Go by that. By the 4th generation, the F body was a zombie platform. There, I said it.

You mean a 35 year old chassis design, and really 20 years with swappable suspension parts (82-92)using 100 year old rear end technology (solid rear axle) a bad weight distribution, weak rear, trans, and squeeky body/ interior panels, and weight issues? nah dude, thats good for another 10, maybe 20 years tops. lol

[WildBillyT]

You mean a 35 year old chassis design, and really 20 years with swappable suspension parts (82-92)using 100 year old rear end technology (solid rear axle) a bad weight distribution, weak rear, trans, and squeeky body/ interior panels, and weight issues? nah dude, thats good for another 10, maybe 20 years tops. lol

"Cat hump where there ain't no cat" FTW

[BigAls87Z28]

Price tag to fix the cat hump was almost as much as it would have cost GM to upgrade the rear axle somwhere in the $150 million area.

Cadillac is getting there but are way off. Germans have always been about their over engineering. Look at the Panzer and Tiger tanks from WW2. Overbuilt and over engineered.
German cars here is America are mostly luxury cars with the exception of VW but even they have a different way about them.
Id say the Aveo has better fit and finish then a 4th gen.

[WildBillyT]

Price tag to fix the cat hump was almost as much as it would have cost GM to upgrade the rear axle somwhere in the $150 million area.

Cadillac is getting there but are way off. Germans have always been about their over engineering. Look at the Panzer and Tiger tanks from WW2. Overbuilt and over engineered.
German cars here is America are mostly luxury cars with the exception of VW but even they have a different way about them.
Id say the Aveo has better fit and finish then a 4th gen.

Overengineering isn't always a good thing. There's an EGR filter on my dad's 930 turbo that's under the entire top end of the engine, back behind the rear seat. You have to take off the intercooler, air box, and a lot of the top end stuff to get to it. On the side of the filter housing? Service bi-weekly.

LOL.

[WiMiMc]

from what i've seen the GM cars in the middle east/china are really nice, check out the lumina and caprice. they're just amazing. seems like GM doesn't care about the American market :cry:

[Blacdout96]

Overengineering isn't always a good thing. There's an EGR filter on my dad's 930 turbo that's under the entire top end of the engine, back behind the rear seat. You have to take off the intercooler, air box, and a lot of the top end stuff to get to it. On the side of the filter housing? Service bi-weekly.

LOL.

What will it take to drive that 930, or at least have my wife get a ride in it since I turned her into a big porsche fan now? :drool: Please tell me thats a slant nose, oh for the love of god if it is lol.

[WildBillyT]

What will it take to drive that 930, or at least have my wife get a ride in it since I turned her into a big porsche fan now? :drool: Please tell me thats a slant nose, oh for the love of god if it is lol.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/double_overdrive496/7f551f54.jpg

[Slow-V6]

Germans have always been about their over engineering. Look at the Panzer and Tiger tanks from WW2. Overbuilt and over engineered.
.

And Germany lost the war to the US and its crappy tanks and crappy cars...

German cars are built to run in Germany. Driving in Europe is a totally different experiance then driving in the US. Hell every taxi and bus in Europe is a Mercedes benz. I remember walking In Nice France on a port call with a buch of Sailors and Marines from the Carrier and every other car we saw was a Lambo or Ferrari. It took us about 1 hr to walk 4 blocks because we were amazed at all the exotic cars we saw. All the French people didnt even give a look at the cars as they passed except for 1 yellow C4 Corvette that caught the attention of just about all the locals. We were amazed. A TPI corvette is a jaw dropper for French people just as a Lambo is to us!

[Blacdout96]

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/double_overdrive496/7f551f54.jpg

Nice, oh so nice. did he put newer style rims on that? look like they're from a 993. and IMO, that's one of the last truely crazy bat**** Porsche's of all time. that chassis right there, your dad could make a 935 racecar replica since they used them for the sillohuete rules. I like the newer porsches of today, but once again, electronic (just like ferrari and Lambo) are getting in the way of the driving performance, and to me nothing says porsche like a whale tail :) .

And Germany lost the war to the US with its crappy tanks and crappy cars... German cars are built to run in Germany. Driving in Europe is a totally different experiance then driving in the US. Hell every taxi and bus in Europe is a Mercedes benz. I remember walking In Nice France on a port call with a buch of Sailors and Marines from the Carrier and every other car we saw was a Lambo or Ferrari. It took us about 1 hr to walk 4 blocks because we were amazed at all the exotic cars we saw. All the French people didnt even give a look at the cars as they passed except for 1 yellow C4 Corvette that caught the attention of just about all the locals. We were amazed. A TPI corvette is a jaw dropper for French people just as a Lambo is to us!

Come to Laguna Seca for Rolex Reunion next year. same thing happens. a Ferrari 355 ( last true Ferrari) is like a Ford focus there. theres a guy that comes there with a Bugatti Veyron the past couple of years, and people walk by it like is a cavalier, but it's funny to see people gawk at teh Mini Cooper parked next to it. ( P.S. I saw the Veyron S.S. sincethey unveiled it there.......still quiet as a mouse fart, but it can boogy!)

[BigAls87Z28]

from what i've seen the GM cars in the middle east/china are really nice, check out the lumina and caprice. they're just amazing. seems like GM doesn't care about the American market :cry:

:facepalm: the lumina IS what the Pontiac G8 used to be. And they are made in Oz.

[creeper]

my fix for wanting a car that doesn't ride like mush compared to newer German cars: subframe connectors and good shocks. our chassis flex and our shocks are bleh from the factory, fix those two things and it feels a lot better.

[qwikz28]

my fix for wanting a car that doesn't ride like mush compared to newer German cars: subframe connectors and good shocks. our chassis flex and our shocks are bleh from the factory, fix those two things and it feels a lot better.

Dude, the subframe connectors only help so much. I wish another company would come up with something more. To be honest, I don't know why, but the car just doesn't feel solid.

[Slow-V6]

Dude, the subframe connectors only help so much. I wish another company would come up with something more. To be honest, I don't know why, but the car just doesn't feel solid.

Its a freaking F-body! Thats the way its suppose to be. If you dont like it then why did you buy it?

I cant believe that 8 years after the last F-body that you guys are now realizing that a BMW Handles better then a Camaro.. You know a Lotus handles better then F-bodies as well.. Why couldnt GM make the Firebird handle just like the Lotus?

[qwikz28]

Its a freaking F-body! Thats the way its suppose to be. If you dont like it then why did you buy it?

I cant believe that 8 years after the last F-body that you guys are now realizing that a BMW Handles better then a Camaro.. You know a Lotus handles better then F-bodies as well.. Why couldnt GM make the Firebird handle just like the Lotus?

relax dude. everyone wants to improve their car, it's why we mod them. Since the time I took possession of it, more than 8 years ago, chassis stiffness has come along way, and all I'm saying is that it would be nice if someone made a solution besides subframe connectors which people still argue whether they even produce a benefit.

And like Keith said, shocks and chassis stiffness go a long way on our cars. Most of the time, they handle better than a BMW when set up properly. I think the issue here though is the overall package, and why GM cheaped out on things such as our ho-hum interior and doo-doo shocks and aging chassis. For example, BMW changes their chassis with every redesign. I'm glad GM is now starting to take suspension tuning seriously though. The CTS and Camaro are prime examples of how far it has come.

[Slow-V6]

relax dude. everyone wants to improve their car, it's why we mod them. Since the time I took possession of it, more than 8 years ago, chassis stiffness has come along way, and all I'm saying is that it would be nice if someone made a solution besides subframe connectors which people still argue whether they even produce a benefit.

And like Keith said, shocks and chassis stiffness go a long way on our cars. Most of the time, they handle better than a BMW when set up properly. I think the issue here though is the overall package, and why GM cheaped out on things such as our ho-hum interior and doo-doo shocks and aging chassis. For example, BMW changes their chassis with every redesign. I'm glad GM is now starting to take suspension tuning seriously though. The CTS and Camaro are prime examples of how far it has come.

I am fine with my cars. I know there strengths and there weakness. My car has full suspension except for shocks and springs. It handles better then it did stock but I know its limits. I knew when I bought it that it would never handle like a BMW M3 but I didnt care. Yes I like to mod my car to improve it just like you but it seems that you have reached that point were no matter what else you do to your car it will not be what you want it to be.

Pontiac put out the Fiero in the 80's to be a great cornering car. That car lasted what 2 yrs. The US wasnt interested in it and only cared mostly about going fast in a straight line. There were special packages for f-body cornering like the 1LE, Firehawk,Comp T/A but thats what they stayed. Special editions. My 95 Firehawk could handle as well as a 95 Vette but they only made 600 copies. Why? Gm built these cars to what the people wanted. Cheaper fast straight line cars that looked good, handled better then a mustang, and felt like a sports car. Thats my take on them. The reason the interiors are not up to par with BMW and the Shocks are not up to par with BMW is becuase the cars were 20-30k cheaper then a BMW to begin with.

A 91 Firehawk was a 40K plus car brand new and I bet it could handle with a BMW M3. Thats because its closer to a BMW in that aspect. There was also a reason why only 25 or so of them were made. Most people didnt want to drop 40 grand on a F-body.

Just want to make sure I am clear. What your pissed about is that a F-body is not up to the same quality as a BMW and GM never did anything about it. Why would GM make a F-body to BMW specs when they have the Corvette and the Caddies?

[JL8Jeff]

It's a moot comparison because you're not talking about the same class of cars or the same time frame. Then add the cost difference. Who is really going to spend $50K plus for a "well built" performance car when they can spend $25-30K for similar performance? It also depends on what type of driving you like. My dad's Honda Pilot is soft, quiet and is actually pretty quick. I prefer something that lets you feel the road and won't wear soft parts out as quickly. I also prefer being able to take turns at speed without roll. My truck has stiff shocks, sits higher, has bigger tires and plenty of power with decent fuel economy. I wouldn't spend another $10-15K for something soft and quiet with interior gimmicks. A car/truck is transportation, not a full body massage! :lol:

-

[91chevywt]

I know this thread is about cars, but I have to add that you cannot beat an American made/designed truck. American pickup trucks have dominated the market, rightly so, because they are reliable and get the job done. Sure the Tundra is fine if you like taking your truck to the dealership every month for a new recall. The Nissan Titan is the only import truck that compares with an American truck in my mind. But when you get into 3/4 - 1 ton territory American made is really the only choice. Not to mention the huge market for medium duty and heavy duty trucks that is dominated by American-made and designed iron.

[qwikz28]

I am fine with my cars. I know there strengths and there weakness. My car has full suspension except for shocks and springs. It handles better then it did stock but I know its limits. I knew when I bought it that it would never handle like a BMW M3 but I didnt care. Yes I like to mod my car to improve it just like you but it seems that you have reached that point were no matter what else you do to your car it will not be what you want it to be.

Pontiac put out the Fiero in the 80's to be a great cornering car. That car lasted what 2 yrs. The US wasnt interested in it and only cared mostly about going fast in a straight line. There were special packages for f-body cornering like the 1LE, Firehawk,Comp T/A but thats what they stayed. Special editions. My 95 Firehawk could handle as well as a 95 Vette but they only made 600 copies. Why? Gm built these cars to what the people wanted. Cheaper fast straight line cars that looked good, handled better then a mustang, and felt like a sports car. Thats my take on them. The reason the interiors are not up to par with BMW and the Shocks are not up to par with BMW is becuase the cars were 20-30k cheaper then a BMW to begin with.

A 91 Firehawk was a 40K plus car brand new and I bet it could handle with a BMW M3. Thats because its closer to a BMW in that aspect. There was also a reason why only 25 or so of them were made. Most people didnt want to drop 40 grand on a F-body.

Just want to make sure I am clear. What your pissed about is that a F-body is not up to the same quality as a BMW and GM never did anything about it. Why would GM make a F-body to BMW specs when they have the Corvette and the Caddies?

I came in here to say I disagree with nearly everything you said. I could elaborate, but I'd rather ask, why do you think I'm pissed or hate my car? I haven't said anything implying that.

[Slow-V6]

I came in here to say I disagree with nearly everything you said. I could elaborate, but I'd rather ask, why do you think I'm pissed or hate my car? I haven't said anything implying that.

I never said you hate your car but its pretty clear that you are pissed that GM didnt do a better job with the 4th gen.

I wish I was pissed off at GM but I accepted what the 4th gens were and still are. I had complaints with the 4th gens when I got my 1st one. Now I am on number 4 and like I said I know what it can and cant do and I am fine with it.

Do I wish that GM would have made a better quality F-body?Maybebut I know that the price would be alot higher then what it was. Instead of starting at 18,000 they would have started at 24,000 like the new camaros. They would have weighed more and probably have been slower with the "better quality and more options". You would still have a rear end issue with a Independant rear end. Bolt ons would more then likely be more expensive as well.

[Mike]

no... he stated that he wishes the AFTERMARKET companies that are making suspension parts for these cars would come out with something more significant than subframe connectors to add chassis rigidity.

[Slow-V6]

no... he stated that he wishes the AFTERMARKET companies that are making suspension parts for these cars would come out with something more significant than subframe connectors to add chassis rigidity.

. I think the issue here though is the overall package, and why GM cheaped out on things such as our ho-hum interior and doo-doo shocks and aging chassis. .

Its been since 1983 with this Chassis and I believe if they were to bring out something aftermarket wise they would have already. I am guessing the reason they havent is that the Majority of F-body owners dont care that there 8,000 car doesnt handle as well as a 50,000 BMW. An aftermarket company would want to sell as much of there product as they can. I remember those double diamond subframe connectors. Do they still make them anymore? The reason I did not buy them is because they cost 400.00. They looked like the best subframe connectors out there. I picked up a set of MAC subframe connectors for 88.00 instead.

[BonzoHansen]

It's not really GM's job to over-engineer the car for the 1% of the owners that want more than stock performance. They need to sell to the other 99% at a profitable rate. The aftermarket has to pick up the torch. Llook at all the cool stuff the aftermarket had ready to go for the 2010 boatmobile, that is how it should be. Even at $35k it is still $20-30k cheaper than a vette, where more engineering goes and whose ownership base has higher expectations.

FWIW, they really didn't start making SFCs for 3rd gens until way later in the run. Or headers. Or anything else of great use. Or you only had fairly expensive options like SLP. The aftermarket was quite slow to address 3rd gens. They didn't know how to deal with EFI or the chassis. Looking at current options, the main players now were not in the game in the late 80s. The older companies did not adapt well and the 3rd gen market was quite under-served and IMO it is a main reason why 3rd gens get a bad wrap. Today that story is different.

Just my opinion growing up through that time. I couldn't get SFCs for my 82 until right before I sold it. I used to call competition engineering every 6 months about SFCs and ask 'when' and they kept saying 'you can't'.

[qwikz28]

It's not really GM's job to over-engineer the car for the 1% of the owners that want more than stock performance. They need to sell to the other 99% at a profitable rate. The aftermarket has to pick up the torch. Llook at all the cool stuff the aftermarket had ready to go for the 2010 boatmobile, that is how it should be. Even at $35k it is still $20-30k cheaper than a vette, where more engineering goes and whose ownership base has higher expectations.

FWIW, they really didn't start making SFCs for 3rd gens until way later in the run. Or headers. Or anything else of great use. Or you only had fairly expensive options like SLP. The aftermarket was quite slow to address 3rd gens. They didn't know how to deal with EFI or the chassis. Looking at current options, the main players now were not in the game in the late 80s. The older companies did not adapt well and the 3rd gen market was quite under-served and IMO it is a main reason why 3rd gens get a bad wrap. Today that story is different.

Just my opinion growing up through that time. I couldn't get SFCs for my 82 until right before I sold it. I used to call competition engineering every 6 months about SFCs and ask 'when' and they kept saying 'you can't'.

when did you sell your 82? I'm sorry if I'm asking you to date yourself :)

[BonzoHansen]

iirc 94

[miketa95]

I gotta say I agree with you. I have always been in love with American cars, my family has always owned them. My first car was a Camaro and my second a Trans Am. They were really fun cars to drive, however not reliable or practical in any way at all. My girlfriend just bought a 2010 Acura TSX and her father just bought a c6 Corvette. The C6 has already been in the shop twice, once because of the traction control broke and another because a spark plug wire came loose. Not big repairs and covered under warranty, but wtf? This is a $50k car. On top of that, the removable top makes the most annoying creaking and groaning. There is no fix for it. Meanwhile the TSX was only $33k, and it starts up and does exactly what it should every single time. I'm not even going to get into the fact that my 06 Silverado has cost me almost $5,000 in stupid bull **** repairs since I've bought it, and I'm still making payments on the peice of ****. I already know I'm not buying another GM truck, and as much as I hate Toyota, I'm beginning to wonder if the Tundra would be as worry free as the TSX.

[miketa95]

I got to drive the Camaro RS and then two weeks later I drove the CTS coupe.
Even with the CTS being heavier, still drove much better, steering was better, etc etc. But the Camaro drives worlds better then your Trans Am.

.


I've Driven a 2010 Camaro SS too, and I have to say both my girlfriends 2010 TSX (minus the torque steer on heavy acceleration) and my Sister's 03 g35 coupe handle worlds better than that car.

[DevilDougWS6]

Germans are crafty bastards. They were the first to come up with the idea if converting infrared light, which is invisible to the human eye, into visible light on a screen. They had nightvision as early as WWII.

[BigAls87Z28]

I've Driven a 2010 Camaro SS too, and I have to say both my girlfriends 2010 TSX (minus the torque steer on heavy acceleration) and my Sister's 03 g35 coupe handle worlds better than that car.

I think you are experiencing better steering feel, not actual better handling.
Camaro's steering is very heavy compared to both of those cars. But handle better? G35 might be close.

As for the Tundra, better check that recall list.....

[qwikz28]

From what I understand, although I haven't driven it, the new Camaro is very capable, but compared to other dedicated sports cars in the segment, it is very mild. I'm hoping GM does what it can to reduce the weight of the 6th gen.

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that as a whole Americans complain about overweight cars yet they themselves are just as overweight?

(Not a jab at anyone here obviously)

[qwikz28]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that as a whole Americans complain about overweight cars yet they themselves are just as overweight?

(Not a jab at anyone here obviously)

It's a general mentality of liking more. It is the American way.

[Iroc-z86]

toyota trucks are garbage, there was a test on flex and how a truck handled over bumps and obstacles and the toyota failed horribly while the gm and ford passed with flying colors. I dont understand why people buy that jap crap. Every time i hear a door close it sounds like its going to fall off. My 25 year old camaro which is all metal sounds better.

German cars are good. for a luxury car im audi all the way. ive driven a few and i just really like them. Im not a fan of bmw or Mercedes tho.

and i dont understand why peope hate gm so much. my family has owned several of them and its just normal wear. the worst thing that broke on my moms truck is the 4wd motor, trans and oil cooling lines. after 180k and 12 years i dont think thats bad at all.

[miketa95]

My truck has 79k miles and it's an 06 with the 5.3 motor. It's really not that old. I shouldn't be replacing air conditioners, having transmission problems, burning oil like crazy, replacing axle seals twice, needing a new radio/a/c controls because the originals blew out, never have a full set of functional lights, having to replace a steering column, and more. And on top of that, I'm still doing the wear and tear things, like tires, brakes, hubs. I thought my trans am was bad bc it needed so many repairs, but this truck is worse. Maybe I won't go for a Toyota in the end, but I sure as hell am not getting a GM truck ever again. When the TA broke down, it wasn't such a big deal because it was just a fun car and I could get a ride from someone while it was getting fixed. Now I have a Silverado and I rely on it for my buisness. When the thing is always broken, falling apart, or making embarrassing loud noises because something is messed up again, It really hurts my company, my income, and in the end I'm practically working just to keep the truck up. It's no wonder why all of the competition drive Superduty's. I'm just saying, It is a fact that GM made, and still makes (imo) much lower quality vehicles than their competition all the way across the board. The little things are the killer. Obviously GM can make good performing, fun cars when they want to (like the vette, f-body, gto, etc..) but as for quality, they are lacking.

[JL8Jeff]

My truck has 79k miles and it's an 06 with the 5.3 motor. It's really not that old. I shouldn't be replacing air conditioners, having transmission problems, burning oil like crazy, replacing axle seals twice, needing a new radio/a/c controls because the originals blew out, never have a full set of functional lights, having to replace a steering column, and more. And on top of that, I'm still doing the wear and tear things, like tires, brakes, hubs. I thought my trans am was bad bc it needed so many repairs, but this truck is worse. Maybe I won't go for a Toyota in the end, but I sure as hell am not getting a GM truck ever again. When the TA broke down, it wasn't such a big deal because it was just a fun car and I could get a ride from someone while it was getting fixed. Now I have a Silverado and I rely on it for my buisness. When the thing is always broken, falling apart, or making embarrassing loud noises because something is messed up again, It really hurts my company, my income, and in the end I'm practically working just to keep the truck up. It's no wonder why all of the competition drive Superduty's. I'm just saying, It is a fact that GM made, and still makes (imo) much lower quality vehicles than their competition all the way across the board. The little things are the killer. Obviously GM can make good performing, fun cars when they want to (like the vette, f-body, gto, etc..) but as for quality, they are lacking.

Did you buy it new? The truck sounds like a lemon and should have been returned. But if you bought it used I think you're out of luck. My 01 has more miles and none of the problems you are having so don't assume they are all like yours. But all manufacturers have lemons and that is why there is a law to protect consumers to some extent.

[Iroc-z86]

Yeah it does sound like a lemon, my gf just bought a 2010 liberty, on day two of owning it with 54 miles on it the est(stability control) computer blew out along with three of the 4 wheel sensors. Then the drivers window track broke, then every now and then the trans makes a weird noise. i think this one is a lemon and luckily she bought it new so we can do something if it becomes a big problem.

My buddy bought an 03 sierra that was used a plow truck....big mistake. that thing had more problems than any other car/truck. but then again the previous owner just beat the crap out of it and traded it in.

[Mark B]

My 01 GMC Sierra has 166k on it and runs like a top. Only problem is a leaking oil pan gasket.

I find it amazing that people continue to compare GM cars to Mercedes & BMW's. How are you going to compare a 25k Malibu to a 60k Mercedes and call it a fair fight? Not to mention, to get any kind of "performance" mercedes, you are talking 100k+. I would much rather have three 2SS Camaros.

[Slow-V6]

My 01 GMC Sierra has 166k on it and runs like a top. Only problem is a leaking oil pan gasket.

I find it amazing that people continue to compare GM cars to Mercedes & BMW's. How are you going to compare a 25k Malibu to a 60k Mercedes and call it a fair fight? Not to mention, to get any kind of "performance" mercedes, you are talking 100k+. I would much rather have three 2SS Camaros.

Why dont people compare a CTS-V vrs a M3?

[FlyingDutchman]

My truck has 79k miles and it's an 06 with the 5.3 motor. It's really not that old. I shouldn't be replacing air conditioners, having transmission problems, burning oil like crazy, replacing axle seals twice, needing a new radio/a/c controls because the originals blew out, never have a full set of functional lights, having to replace a steering column, and more. And on top of that, I'm still doing the wear and tear things, like tires, brakes, hubs. I thought my trans am was bad bc it needed so many repairs, but this truck is worse. Maybe I won't go for a Toyota in the end, but I sure as hell am not getting a GM truck ever again. When the TA broke down, it wasn't such a big deal because it was just a fun car and I could get a ride from someone while it was getting fixed. Now I have a Silverado and I rely on it for my buisness. When the thing is always broken, falling apart, or making embarrassing loud noises because something is messed up again, It really hurts my company, my income, and in the end I'm practically working just to keep the truck up. It's no wonder why all of the competition drive Superduty's. I'm just saying, It is a fact that GM made, and still makes (imo) much lower quality vehicles than their competition all the way across the board. The little things are the killer. Obviously GM can make good performing, fun cars when they want to (like the vette, f-body, gto, etc..) but as for quality, they are lacking.




Im going out on a limb here, but do you really expect to drive offroad in the mud and not have problems? Im just basing that off your sig pic. Id expect to have a **** load of problems too if I abused my f-body . . . just saying.

[Tru2Chevy]

BUTTT i will say this my e30 bmw odometer is stuck at 256k miles and that has got to be at least 50k miles ago... i drive over 75 miles daily on the biotch and since ive had it (prob 6 years) ive only had to replace a water pump a fuel pump andddddd thats it lol :)

i know its old as hell but still bmw and still german engineered anddd still running strong ;)

lol yeah the dd is acting up... sometimes when i turn the key it starts no problem, sometimes its a delay and then starts no problem, and sometimes it just doesnt start at all.

my guess is some kind of ground loose or a loose connection some where?

car is a 91 bmw 325i

Couldn't help but LOL after reading your thread in the tech section....

- Justin

[qwikz28]

My 01 GMC Sierra has 166k on it and runs like a top. Only problem is a leaking oil pan gasket.

I find it amazing that people continue to compare GM cars to Mercedes & BMW's. How are you going to compare a 25k Malibu to a 60k Mercedes and call it a fair fight? Not to mention, to get any kind of "performance" mercedes, you are talking 100k+. I would much rather have three 2SS Camaros.

That comparison was never made in this thread, or likely ever. Comparing a CTS and a 3 series or C-class is fair though.

[MyFirstZ]

im still thrown up between the 3 or 5 series being the comparison with a cts.

i love my american cars alot but i had the intake box off the m3 with the s65 v8 with individual throttle bodies at work today. That thing sucked the freaking air out of a ten foot radius almost passed out revving it from lack of oxygen. hahaha

BMW are really something else but i will never give up my ls1 anything for one. Even as torquey as the m5 and m6's are, they just dont have that muscle car feel that we have all grown to love.

i want to try out the 335d's, they are supposed to be pretty torquey for a 6.

[qwikz28]

im still thrown up between the 3 or 5 series being the comparison with a cts.
It fits in between them in terms of size.

[BigAls87Z28]

im still thrown up between the 3 or 5 series being the comparison with a cts.

i love my american cars alot but i had the intake box off the m3 with the s65 v8 with individual throttle bodies at work today. That thing sucked the freaking air out of a ten foot radius almost passed out revving it from lack of oxygen. hahaha

BMW are really something else but i will never give up my ls1 anything for one. Even as torquey as the m5 and m6's are, they just dont have that muscle car feel that we have all grown to love.

i want to try out the 335d's, they are supposed to be pretty torquey for a 6.


M5 torquey? Powerful, yes, but torque is not their strong suit.

335d is a diesel, it should have tons of torque.


CTS is the size of the 5, priced like a 3, and cannot compete with either one directly.
3 series is your primer sports sedan, and while the CTS is a great car, it just too big and heavy to fight it directly.
The 5 offers too much over the CTS, from interior trim options to powertrains, its just a super higher class car, but the price dictates taht.

Not untill the ATS shows up, the CTS will remain a "tweener"

[Blacdout96]

Im going out on a limb here, but do you really expect to drive offroad in the mud and not have problems? Im just basing that off your sig pic. Id expect to have a **** load of problems too if I abused my f-body . . . just saying.

I thought the same thing. mudding isnt exactly the easiest thing to put a truck through. kinda like slapping yourself in the face and asking why it hurts so much.

[chknhwk01]

american, the best muscle a round, player,s,,, dig it dawg.......:nod:
:drool: over the killer,s cobro jet, little work 8 sec... 427 zo6, very little
work, 10 secs... 6.1 dodge, with a super charger, an a little work 10.50..
americannnnnnnnnnnnn.muscle at its ''bestttttttttttttttt''......:rofl:
can you dig it,''''''''warrior,zzzzzzzzzzzz......:nod:

[91chevywt]

I thought the same thing. mudding isnt exactly the easiest thing to put a truck through. kinda like slapping yourself in the face and asking why it hurts so much.

It's probably as hard on a truck as plowing snow, if not more depending on what you drive through and how.


american, the best muscle a round, player,s,,, dig it dawg.......:nod:
:drool: over the killer,s cobro jet, little work 8 sec... 427 zo6, very little
work, 10 secs... 6.1 dodge, with a super charger, an a little work 10.50..
americannnnnnnnnnnnn.muscle at its ''bestttttttttttttttt''......:rofl:
can you dig it,''''''''warrior,zzzzzzzzzzzz......:nod:


This is exactly what I wanted to say but I don't posses the descrive abilities to do so. I can dig it

[Blacdout96]

american, the best muscle a round, player,s,,, dig it dawg.......:nod:
:drool: over the killer,s cobro jet, little work 8 sec... 427 zo6, very little
work, 10 secs... 6.1 dodge, with a super charger, an a little work 10.50..
americannnnnnnnnnnnn.muscle at its ''bestttttttttttttttt''......:rofl:
can you dig it,''''''''warrior,zzzzzzzzzzzz......:nod:

1. Are you a wrestler? or did you skip typing class

2. As annoying as it is to read your posts, I can't help but laugh at the same time lol

3. understandable with the little work results in huge gains of horsepower, but handling ( which the post is about) and quality is another issue. I enjoy Amreican cars, but when road racing, I would prefer to have a european or Japanese market car.

[Mark B]

Why dont people compare a CTS-V vrs a M3?

They do...

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/comparobmw-m3-vs-audi-rs4-vs-cadillac-cts-v-vs-lexus-is-f-vs-mercedes-c63-amg/

Plus the CTS-V is the size of the M5... Not the M3

And heres the M5 comparison...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQp5ih_QOE0&feature=channel

[Frosty]

1. Are you a wrestler? or did you skip typing class

2. As annoying as it is to read your posts, I can't help but laugh at the same time lol



You'd have to know him in person to understand....trust me on that one. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Blacdout96]

You'd have to know him in person to understand....trust me on that one. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I had a feeling I would have to :lol:

[fmybody]

Couldn't help but LOL after reading your thread in the tech section....

- Justin

hahaha we have a love hate relationship =/ but you wait! once i fix her shell back back no prob!

comon.. the cars got over 300k miles.. engine has never been rebuilt.. thats way beyond any life expectancy of a car! give it its props!:nod:

[Tru2Chevy]

hahaha we have a love hate relationship =/ but you wait! once i fix her shell back back no prob!

comon.. the cars got over 300k miles.. engine has never been rebuilt.. thats way beyond any life expectancy of a car! give it its props!:nod:

Yea, I know. I was just bustin' stones.

- Justin

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

once i fix her shell back back no prob!

It better, that's the point of fixing it!

[chknhwk01]

I had a feeling I would have to :lol:

what u mean, hoof mouth.. me speakmm good ''''maguana dobe''''
25 years of street college..... buk buk buk, banana breath... :drool:
geting to know you, :lol::lol:

[CJDZ24_Z28]

Also like stated above you can't compare a 3rd/4th gen to a luxury car or even a real sports car unless its about power and possibly handling. Pretty much only true enthusiasts know the real good qualities of F-Bodies. Also like stated every car has a fault. AS far as staying power my current 98 Z has 177k on it and below is a video of my of old 99 Z28. Check the odometer.

http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e21/CJDZ24_Z28/?action=view&current=nov16036.flv

[miketa95]

Im going out on a limb here, but do you really expect to drive offroad in the mud and not have problems? Im just basing that off your sig pic. Id expect to have a **** load of problems too if I abused my f-body . . . just saying.


Yeah I've been "offroading" twice. basically I follow my friends with their FJ cruiser and Xterra, wait on the sidelines, and pull them out when their stuck. Of course along the road theres a couple light puddles I've gone through, and I made a sig pic out of the one time I managed to get mud on the body. but i don't think that would explain any the issues with the truck. On top of this, my friend has never needed a repair on his xterra (2003 supercharged model.) He literally hasn't spent a dime on anything other than oil changes and a set of tires, doesn't even run the thing on premium fuel like the thing says on the dash, manual, gas cap, etc. Same deal with the FJ. Both of these kids didn't even clean their trucks off after the trip! they left them covered in mud for weeks. I was underneath the Silverado, soaking wet, hosing down every bit of the thing that night! I go far beyond to try and maintain this thing, and it is still unreliable.
I use it for work too, landscaping, pulling a trailer, starting and stopping a lot. I've also brought it to Atco and raced it. I'll admit I'm hard on it, but i don't think I should have problems with half of the stuff I do considering what I use it for. One trip to atco and two times down the same trail shouldn't cause everything to break.
There is a serious lack of quality in this truck. Believe me, I do like driving it when it works. It has decent power and ride without a trailer, passengers, or cargo. People constantly are talking about how great the quality is in American Trucks. Not this one. If pulling a relatively light weight trailer, taking your "off road package" truck off the road, and flooring it for a quarter mile all hurt the thing this bad, to where it is making me completely broke, then I gotta say I am really, truly disappointed and I sure as hell won't be buying another.

[BigAls87Z28]

It is sad to hear about your truck. Im surprised your friend with the FJ doesn't have any frame problems like most of them do when they are put to the test. While your truck has had its share of problems overall the american trucks are better then their japanese couterparts.

[Blacdout96]

It is sad to hear about your truck. Im surprised your friend with the FJ doesn't have any frame problems like most of them do when they are put to the test. While your truck has had its share of problems overall the american trucks are better then their japanese couterparts.

Whats that Toyota? A recall for rotting frames? from Tacoma's? well surely they must be the first year run.....oh recent ones? and you bought the trucks back form them completely and gave them new trucks so you could hush your customers, and try to keep it on the Down low? well thats nice, this must be the first time your frames rotted out on your trucks.....no? you mean this has been happening for the past 30 years? damn......well good luck with that.

[miketa95]

The FJ is pretty new, I think he only has like 7k miles on it, so maybe in time he will have problems. The Xterra has a lot of miles though, somewhere around 80 or 90k like my truck. I don't want a toyota, but I am definitely being drawn to a Ford.

[WildBillyT]

Whats that Toyota? A recall for rotting frames? from Tacoma's? well surely they must be the first year run.....oh recent ones? and you bought the trucks back form them completely and gave them new trucks so you could hush your customers, and try to keep it on the Down low? well thats nice, this must be the first time your frames rotted out on your trucks.....no? you mean this has been happening for the past 30 years? damn......well good luck with that.

I saw this firsthand with my boss's truck. I know my way around rust... and that '99 Tacoma had a worse frame than the '69 Camaro I had. And that car was a rusty POS.

[Blacdout96]

I saw this firsthand with my boss's truck. I know my way around rust... and that '99 Tacoma had a worse frame than the '69 Camaro I had. And that car was a rusty POS.

In three months that I was at Toyota, I had 6 calls for people who set up appointments, or to have their pickups towed back to Toyota so they could get a new truck. my grandfathers Toyota pickup, was driving it, literally snapped in half between the cab and the bed and still owns it to this day, but doesnt drive it, it's just sitting in his back yard. it folded in half. I still dont know whats keeping it together. this was about 15 years ago.

[qwikz28]

In three months that I was at Toyota, I had 6 calls for people who set up appointments, or to have their pickups towed back to Toyota so they could get a new truck. my grandfathers Toyota pickup, was driving it, literally snapped in half between the cab and the bed and still owns it to this day, but doesnt drive it, it's just sitting in his back yard. it folded in half. I still dont know whats keeping it together. this was about 15 years ago.

Whoa! Imagine the rust on it now! More info on the truck? I know it was 15 years ago, but is there any shot that it is eligible for the recall? Maybe try writing a letter to Toyota?

[Blacdout96]

Well I love my grandfather, but I hate the fact that he waves an american flag outside his house, but swears by Toyota cars. He still rocks his 1980 Corolla, and bought a 2009 Camry when I worked there. He wouldn't trade the Pickup in eve nif he had the chance, plus I doubt he took any pictures when it happened. It was a really nice truck too, you could eat off the paint it was soo clean, but still, snapped like a kit kat bar.

Before I get flamed, I really needed a job to get my wife here, and seeing as it dealt with cars, thought it was better then nothing, even if they were Toyota's. I don't support Toyota's even if they make some of their cars in America. Im kinda in the hunt for a SRT-4, but everyone I've looked at have been whooped.