When was the last time GM, without GMAC, posted profit? Hasn't it been since yearly 2000's?

Yeah it's something like that, I tried finding it online but came up with nothing.

I'm going to do my part and buy an 09 Sierra.... Did you see the rebates on these things???? I was debating an F-150, but even with Employee Discount, the Sierra was less for the exact truck!

Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but I don't see any good coming out of this. Now that the government has their claws in GM, the product portfolio is going to completely change. I hope that they can make something I'll be interested in, but honestly, the government takes enough money from me every year in taxes. Do I really want to buy a car that they are going to make profit on, and also tax me on?

I wouldn't worry about the government making a profit, even some Obama officials said they doubt they'll recover all of the money they're forking over to GM, nice eh? You can certainly kiss the $$ the Bush Administration gave them goodbye.

Wrong, but Tony said why it is wrong.

Its not a matter of getting rid of the SUV/Trucks.
Its making better cars all around. GM needs a solid compact car. GM hasnt focused on cars in over a decade. First time GM actually put together a good midsized sedan was 1988 with the W body.
GM hasnt made a real compact car since the first years of the Jbody.
Even the Cobalt, while decent, became outclassed in less then a model year.

As for trimming the fat, they have cut 68 billion dollars in debt to just 17 with one swoop.

Way way way too much paranoia with this, and this is why GM was so worried about going into any form of BK.

Nothing has happend, every car that will come out for the next 3 years has already been green lit. Any vehicles that will show any major changes wont be seen till MY14.

My comment is referring to the current administration not wanting gas guzzlers so the trucks/SUV's will be cut back big time. When Honda, Toyota and Nissan all got into the full size truck and SUV market it was a pretty obvious sign that people were living beyond their means and the automakers kept building bigger, less efficient, more expensive vehicles. The S10 pickup and SUV were the right size but of course they had to go up to the next size. All the manufacturers need to downsize their vehicles and the american public needs to start losing weight so they can fit in normal size vehicles! :nod:

Well, agreed. I think that people need to stop wanting to get bigger, larger, greater vehicles but then again its not up to me to decide what other people should do.
I am not a fan of telling people how to live thier lives. I dislike the asshats in Excursions and Suburbans, but they would be asshats in Civics and Smart cars too.
I think that a gas tax hike is the ONLY way to have people change the way they drive.
CAFE is an end around way of making people drive small cars, but as Bob Lutz put it, thats like making people lose weight by selling only small t shirts.
But CAFE is the light duty way, the indirect way to make people drive smaller more economical cars.
I think cars like the Volt will be the forseeable future, cars that use engines as a generator, not as a direct drive source.
Gas engines like the Volt's 1.4 will be replaced by perhaps Diesel engines that get better gas milage, extending the range.
Disel could then be replaced by hydrogen fuel cells, charging the battery system once battery power has been depleted.

You're probably right but that is a ridiculous way to force change. We're Americans, we do WTF we want because we still have choice. Like you said earlier in your post...you don't have the right to tell people how to live their lives...nor do I and the government shouldn't be forcing people to drive pretty little Prius'. We should the CHOICE to drive what we want. Like you also said that GM has the technology to make great hybrids and fuel efficient vehicles...however the demand needs to be there and that's not something the government should force.

I guess I feel that the goverment should step in to a certain degree.
I think that there should be a gas cap, something that moves with the economy. Not make it 4 bucks a gallon, but right about 250-3 bucks a gallon is about where the goverment should try to cap it. It would make people think instead of force people into smaller cars.
And thoes that still want muscle cars, the car companies can make them if you can afford them. Europe has the worlds best cars, but if you want one, you have to pay through teh nose for it. I dont agree with displacement tax, and the thousands of vehicle taxes and surcharges they put on vehicles over there, but I think that the goverment should take some sort of proactive approach to slowing demand of gas and oil in this country, because we as Americans cant do it outselves.

We'll agree to disagree..however I see where you're coming from. It's a debate that will never be won by either side...what I don't get is that we still have a ton of viable oil options and oil deposits but we can't tap into them. One thing you have to consider though Al...regardless of what we do to reduce oil and gas consumption other forms of energy cost an arm and a leg. I love the hydrogen vehicles GM came out with...I really think that was a GREAT idea..however where's that energy coming from? It takes massive amounts of energy at the fueling stations which obviously requires its own power supply. How does that fueling station get its energy? Coal? Coal is bad. Wind or solar? Great but environmental nuts have blocked those plants/farms all over the county because the super rare African spotted beetle might have its nest disturbed(exaggerating but you get my point) and everyone has the "not in my back yard mentality"

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. If we find ways to get our fuel from sources other than oil SOMEONE will find a way to try to block it or some group will sue which gets factored into the cost of developing the new energy source. No matter what everyone loses.

Oh I agree, but there is no silver bullet.
Work must be focused on how to make hyrdogen cheaper and with a lot less energy.
Its the most abundant element in the universe, so how ****in hard could that be.

Fusion!

The problem is that not only the government, but the people at GM don't know how to run a car company. I was watching Fox news the other night and GM's CFO was saying that they're bringing in a former Coke-a-Cola bigwig to join the new board. Maybe I'm crazy, but doesn't it make sense to have people who know cars run a car company? Guys like Knudsen, Estes, DeLorean and Wangers were real car guys. Lutz is the only guy I can think of as really knowing cars and he's retiring. The guys at GM today only know numbers and spreadsheets.

Without getting into too much chemistry let me just say that Hydrogen bonds are what hold water together, they're what hold DNA together. It's not going to be easy to break a ton of those so you can run to the grocery store.

Fixed.


Al, I think you made a great point about people living ahead of their means with their choices in transportation. That's a concept that should apply to all aspects of our lives. It would lead to a whole lot less personal finance issues among a myriad of other things, I'm sure. But that's a pipe dream.

There is always a gamble with that.
On one hand, you had GM hire former Procter and Gamble guy Ron Zarella as the head of product development. Many say that it was him who ran GM's products into the ground almost all by himself. He was replaced by Bob Lutz.
On the other, you have Ford who removed a family member, a man that has grown up inside the halls of Ford, and put in the former CEO of Boeing Alan Mullaly. There seems to have been a massive turn around at Ford, with Mullaly said to have made most if not all the moves himself, forcing things to happen.
People on the board tend to not have a ton of direction outside of making sure the company makes money. They do give the final thumbs up on certain things, but really any new blood inside of the board is the greatest thing in the world. People that understand the culture, people that actually want to help. And these people usually do come from other parts of the business world, not always automotive.
If he was coming over to replace Lutz, who is retireing, I would be a little worried. But most likely that Lutz's replacement will come from the auto-world, probably from inside GM.

Oh I know, I was saying that there is a lot of it, and that there should be major developments to try to find a way to make it easier and cheaper.