surprised no one picked up on the "horribly failed attempt to revive the GTO...." comment.

:popcorn:

Id would of, but last time I mentioned GTO all the GM nutswingers came out and flamed me. :lol:

The LSA......not missing it at all. But guess what? That kills the idea of keeping the price down....so now your talking about a 50K+ Z28? And how many people are gonna drop that kinda coin on a Camaro? Not a Vette, not a Caddy, but a Camaro?

What would be outright hilarious is if they did an iron block version for the Camaro so the CTS-V crowd would still feel exclusive.

With the exception of the original Z28, the Camaro has always gotten a watered down motor from the Vette. Why can't the Z28 be a car unto itself. No borrowed motors, no trying to please everyone with gadgets and ubber refinements. Build a bad mofo car, keep it simple, keep it clean, give it the HP, the suspension and good seats and let it rip. If it kicks the base Vette's rear end, then the Vette team needs to up the ante.

Who is the target demographic again?

Can anyone honestly say with a straight face that the GTO was NOT a bust?

Drivetrain.....CHECK Worldclass....we can agree on this.
Interior apppointments........CHECK...way ahead of any F-body and huge step forward for GM.....

Exterior........The one that looked like a Cobalt on a strectched wheelbase? Fail, huge Fail.... The GTO's exterior styling was so generic that without the badges you would be hard pressed to pick it out in a crowd.

How much R&D, tooling and marketing $$$$ got flushed down the tubes on that one?

Not much. I seem to remember it being one of the most rushed projects in GM's history. A few months to convert the entire Holden car to USA spec.

Except in the mid to late 70's. The Trans Am was faster than the Vette. Of course that was a dark time for performance...dodge had the fastest american production vehicle and it was a pickup.:shock: so, that's not saying much.

SD455 in '73-'74

Then you can make the argument the GT500 is a waste as it's the upper echelon of it's model. How cheap do you want a car? I mean really. Power costs money. Like I said a million times, the days of stripped out, no optioned high powered cars are dead...building a car like that caters to a VERY select few people. Yes, we're all motor heads here and want to go fast with doing very little work...but guess what? The average Joe doesn't need or want a car like that. They want a car with bells and whistles that has a good amount of power. He/she wants a car that they can hop in and drive anywhere and listen to their XM radio with the sunroof open. THAT is what sells a bunch of cars...not the small demographic we consider ourselves.

Why do you think the V6 models sell so well?

For the Z28? the same guy buying the $50,000+ Mustang. The same guy that bought the $5,000+ COPO or $7,000+ ZL1 in 1969. Deep pockets. the Z is now the top dog and is priced as such. don't get lost on the model designations. Compare apples to apples. Giving the new Z28 it's own engine and not the CTSV engine would just raise the $$ even more!

You guys really seem to be talking about a stripper model/club racer type of car. This Z28 ain't that - it's a shelby/ktr/wtf mustang beater. Do they need one? Maybe. Buy a zero option 1SS and strip it yourself, problem solved!

I'd like to see a V6 car be able to get the underpinnings/brakes on the SS. That might be fun!

not that much in the grand scheme of things.

The V6 cars sell because people don't have the $$$ for the V8 cars. A 50-60k Z28 caters to a very few select people also, no?

First the argument is made that a big power low option car won't selll because nobody wants them. Ok. Point taken. But I argue that while everybody might like the idea of big power big option Z28, nobody will buy them at the price level GM will set them at. So really you end up in the same place weak sales for the Z28?

If you're gonna swing for the fences then man up and do it....Stealing the LSA from Caddy is nice. But if you are really going at the super ubber King Snake/KTR/wtf Mustang why not just use the LS9 and the dry sump setup? At 4000lbs the camaro won't be faster than the Vette, but it'd put such a hurtin on the Mustang that GM would have the bragging rights they seem to be going for. Ultimate supremacy. This might be one of the few instances where using an elephant gun to kill the fly is justified.

I like Bonzo's suggestion with the 1SS except I don't want to buy a new car and strip it. I want GM to engineer a lighter car, add more power and suspension. I think maybe I'm equating the Z28 more to the 1LE and that's not the direction that GM (or anyone else but me for that matter) is going with this. Because originally (first gen) the Z28 was more closely equal to 1LE and the SS was the car to get if you wanted all the goodies. There was no AC or automatics to be had in the Z28 and I'm perfectly OK with that. If we are going retro, then lets go retro. Clearly I am not in agreement with the current marketing strategy or the trim level designations. Nor do I think there is any significant market for a 50-60K Camaro, super charged or otherwise. How many do they hope to build 69 (pun intended)?

As a parting thought.....(not a parting shot):lol:
Do the trim levels like this (thinking back to the first gen stuff)
1LT would be like the entry level think 250/PG combo....
1SS would be like the base performance V8 think 327/210hp combo
2SS would be like the high performance V8 think 350/300hp SS combo
3SS would be like the special high performance V8 396/375hp SS combo (currently what the Z28 sounds to be, big power, big options)

Z28 would be like the orginal Z28 - good HP/suspension/brakes, lower option availability, lower curb weight. You might be required to pass the old "turn your head and cough" test before signing your name on the line for one......:nod:

Peace.....

And it showed in the bland styling.....

But was the GTO a success or was it something more towards the other end of the scale?

IIRC LS9 is a wet sump engine. I think LSA is too.

Yes, very few. And GM wants to make $$ off them. I bet they project to sell no more than 750-1000, and any more is icing.

Regarding the V6 comment, don't assume what you want is 'normal'! :mrgreen: They didn't call Mustangs secretary cars for nothing! Many people buy V6 cars because they like the looks and don't want a V8 car. They think is too fast for them (probably true) and they don't like the lower MPG. It is not only cost, not at all. I bet a fully loaded 2LT/RS will cost as much as many V8 cars. And this car is getting a hot little V6. And the car is a few hundred pounds lighter.

At this point GM needs to make money, a bunch of one off options & models just kills the bottom line. Tooling up for goofy parts used on 500 cars gets expensive fast, especially if govt crash testing or emissions compliance is involved.

the C6 Z06 is a 10 second car off of the show room floor, stock clutch, on street tires

You sure about that? You're thinking too much like a Fbody owner and motor head than in the real world...a majority of the V6 owners want just that...a cool looking car without all of the needless power and cost.

Do you think the 39yr old woman who doesn't know a thing about cars needs the GT or wants that power?

HOLY ****!!!


Camaro, by its nature, will never come that close to the Corvette
#2: there have been a handfull of cars that have matched or beaten the Corvette. Current CTS-V will out perform the base C6 in just about everything.


Camaro outsold the Mustang, by a large margin, since it stepped onto dealer lots. By a lot. In fact, some months Camaro outsold the Mustang AND Challenger combined.
You say dont strip it out, but then you say take away all featuers like power windows, door locks, etc etc?
You say dont want it stripped, but you want 400lbs to disappear?
The chassis is very strong adn was developed to hold 600+hp without additional chassis stregnthing, unlike the Mustang which gets a LOT of chassis upgrades to go from GT to GT500. Think that 500lbs gain from the two models is a supercharger and a 6spd manual? Remember, GT500 carries the SAME rear axle as the GT, and does not get an upgraded IRS system.
So an engine and a trans, a different hood, and people spend 15k MORE for it?

Camaro will not be able to loose 400lbs. 100-200lbs? Sure.
The LS7 costs a lot of money, as everything is unique and hand built. An LS7 powerd Camaro would come in at around 55k. Realize that the LS7 crate engine costs 50% of what a brand new, Camaro SS costs? Think about it.


LS is base car 18" retro steelies.
1LT is step up. 18" alloy wheels cloth seats with cloth inserts on door and dash
2LT is next step up 19" alloy wheels with heated leather seats. Heated side mirrors as well, blue tooth standard, USB standard, Boston Accoustic system standard.
1SS gets same trim as the 1LT, just with a V8. SS gets different nose cone, 20" wheels with performance tires.
2SS gets same as 2LT, only with SS features.
RS package available on LT and SS models. Gives LT cars SS wheels, body color roof molding, darkened tail lights, red RS or SS badge, and halo headlights.

I agree with you, but you arent gunna see 400lbs. Thats greater then 10% of the weight of the car. Corvette Z51 vs Corvette Z06, the weight difference is 150lbs, and the Corvette Z06 gets an all aluminum frame, magensium engine cradle and roof brace. It also has carbon fiber parts.

I agree that the Z28 should be a lighter weight version of the SS. Up the brakes, up the suspension, minor boost in LS3 power, drop the weight by 150lbs. It would be a fantastic car, offering a 450hp car at around 3700lbs.
Bench mark, to me, is the M3. M3 is a 400+hp coupe weighing in at 3700lbs or so. Z28 should target that cars' drive, steering feel, handling, poise and stance, for 2/3's the price.


The SS annhilates the GT now. The 2011 GT will be a lot closer due to the increased power. But a Z28 will not be going after the GT.


The Z28 would be Camaro's GT500/SRT8, top trim car. While not 50k, it would deff start in the mid 40's. And who would buy them? They would sell every single one, just as they do now. People grab up every GT500, GT500KR, etc etc, and they get to 90k.

Cars like the Z28 are high end cars, and cars taht cost a lot of money usually come with features. Camaro comes with these features like power windows and door locks. Designing roll up windows, manual locks, and things that are not part of the current Camaro would actually drive costs up. A lot. Because then it would have to be certified and retested, as it would rengineer a lot of things inside the door, and that would effect side crash tests.
The Camaro is a bad mofo car now. Corvette does not need to worry about anything. It will be too light, too small, and too fast for the Camaro.

Not 100% on the demo but Id throw out a guess anyone. The V6 is built for the younger crowd, perhaps the non-American crowd is used to the high output of a V6, and not the grunt of a V8.
V8 models market is a older, Id say in the 35-40 year old and up market. People that want power, but dont want modern features.



In 04, the GTO outsold the 04 Cobra.
the 04 GTO outsold, and I belive almost doubled Trans Am sales in 2002.
04 GTO also outsold 2002 SS Camaros.
In American numbers, 15-18k units is a very small number of cars. But to Austrailia, more then 50% of all Monaro production was sold in America.
We assume that since the GTO only had a program run of 3 years due to a total chassis redesign, that it was a flop due to its design.
Far from the truth. GTO's styling was a byproduct of Australian design. It was a low cost, quick move to get a quality product out to market. Pontiac's research says that a lot of Trans Am owners, as well as Grand Am coupe and Grand Prix coupes sold or traded them in and got higher end coupes from BMW, Benz. The idea of bringing a higher quality coupe to market like the GTO was a huge win for GM.
Only in the eyes of jaded enthusiasts did we see the GTO as a flop. We expected a 1970 Judge wraped around a modern platform to come rolling off the boats from Australia.

LS9 is dry sump like the LS7. In fact, they share the same system as they are built along side.
the LSA is not hand built, and therefor has a normal wet sump.

You can spend up to 30k for a 2LT RS...I dont think that "not having the $$$" is a reason for buying a V8. 300hp, and 30mpg, and the look of the hottest car of 2009, all for under 30k?
If it was such a stupid move, Ford wouldnt have tried to copy it.


Also, GM is making a lot more money they then thought they were gunna on the Camaro. About 8 to 10 grand per car on average.
Its a gold mine.

Damn LS9, i thought it was wet sump too. Oh well.

That's all I'm asking (although I'd really like closer to 300lbs weight drop).....Yet everyone seems to think I'm nuts? Does the Z28 need to be supercharged and pushed into the upper $40k price range to accomplish that goal?

As for GTO production 40,800+/- units over the 3 year run is still short of the all the V8 based Pontiacs (Firebirds/TransAms) from the final three years of the 4th gen (2000, 2001, 2002) combined (41,700+/-) so I'm not sold on the GTO being a success. Trends maybe have been learned which were applied to the G8 etc. But on its own the GTO didn't deliver. Best case it was a stop gap that gave GM a mid price V8 rear drive car that it otherwise didn't have.

I appreciate the well thought out answer BigAl. Maybe I am a jaded enthusiast after all. I talk to my Dad (63years old) and you mention Z28 to him and he'll tell you about the 69Z28 he bought new when he got out of the Navy in '69. Forrest Green with Gold Stripes, dealer installed sidepipes, 4-speed no console, no rear spoiler, no cowl hood. A real stripped Z28. The smile on his face is 3 miles wide. Bought headers for it at Langhorne Speedshop or was it Reedman, I forget. Then he laughs says it only cost him $3400 or so. That's what I think when I think Z28......100% performance, no frills and have fun.

Yea, yea....GTO started life as a plain-jane tempest / lemans with a bunch of power under the hood. I personally feel that the 04-06 GTOs do the name 10x more justice than some of the other names that GM has brought back from the past.

- Justin

No, but like this thread has started, people think that GM should copy, car for car, what the Mustang does.
GM said ok, and is going to make a 550hp Supercharged V8 Z28.
Do they have to? No, not in my world. I would much rathe rsee a 3700lbs, 450hp LS3, or Gen V V8 roll out in a Z28.


You are gunna say that you arent sure that teh GTO, which is 200 short of your numbers for the TA, is not a success? Then by your own admission, the Trans Am and its variatns are not a success, and are flops in the market place. But if thats the case, there must be a reason?
You are saying that despite the GTO's lack of any type of loud and brash styling, its higher price point, its heavier weight, its lack of options, or any other things you can think of, it sells about the same as the fabled Trans Am?
The Trans Am did not deliver. The 4th gen was the biggest mistake in GM's history. It sold a fraction of what its previous generations did. Even in the third gen Camaro's worst year, it sold some 90k units I belive. That still is greater then the total sold in the last year of the 4th gen.
This is going by what you are saying. It didnt deliver.

Then is then, now is now. People expect heated seats and navigation in thier subcompact cars. People expect more from thier cars. Even though your father enjoyed his Z28, Id say that on the average Z28's were optioned higher then what your father purcahsed. I have met a lot of Fbody guys in my time. A lot. I could count on one finger how many base base base stripper models I have seen. It was a 2000 Camaro Z28, with roll up windows, manual door locks, hard top, auto, and even then it still has the optional Bose sound system. Guy still has it last time I checked.
Everyone else I have ever met has had more and more options.
Want to know the average transaction price of the current 5th gen? Its high, but I would say that is par for the course for the first year run.
Point is, people dont want to buy race cars anymore. Those days are over. They want a super car or something equivilent, but they want more to go with it.

Well you can spin it that way, both V8 cars were failures then. If the GTO was a success, they would have continued the line. Nobody just stops making a car that is in demand, that doesn't make sense. The F-body was cancelled because it wasn't making GM money. I would guess the same held true for the GTO.

http://www.allgentransams.com/produc...s/pn_home.html

http://www.camaro-registry.com/production.htm

The f-body platform (specifically pontiac's side) appears to have nosedived in the 1990 model year and never really regained the sales after that point. But in any given year the combined platforms would completely outpace the GTO by at least 5 to 1. I still maintain the GTO was a failure, good idea poorly executed. I think GM tried to cash in on a name, looked around found the holden car slapped some badges on it and the US motoring public said no thanks....not the GTO we were thinking of.

I never said the GTO needed loud and brash styling, just something a couple notches up from jellybean would have been more than enough. The CTS, the G8, the new Malibu are all very good looking GM products, but I would not say any of them are loud or brash. Just very clean and well executed designs. And just to be clear I'm not much of a Firebird/Trans Am guy, I'm definitely a Camaro guy.

Now maybe GM learned and are listening with regards to the Z28, and people will line up to buy a super top shelf Z28 at a near corvette price level. Time will tell.

This discussion has opened my eyes as to what the public is asking for. I'm just not part of that mindset. I agree that my Dad's Z28 was a stripper, but I think there are currently way more "loaded" 1969 Z28's now than ever existed in 1969. But yeah I would agree that most Z28's were nicely equipped, not stripped hotrods, but not loaded out JL8 equipped, crossrammed, gauge and console, endura bumpered, RS headlights, houndstooth deluxe interior with the tic-toc-tach etc. etc. etc. either. Time distorts memory, both good and bad.

Here's to GM making a $50k Z28 to go GT500Kr hunting. :cheers: Not the Z28 I would build, but if the public wants it and GM can sell them in sufficient quantity, then more power to them. Maybe then with all the loot they can put out 1LE version for me (and you?).

Chris

wrong. the gto ended because they only brought it for the last three years of the cars existence. that was PLANNED FROM THE BEGINNING. rather than develop the next generation holden coupe for us spec, they brought over the g8s.

You also have to place a HUGE blame (on why the GTO never took off) directly on the freekin money hungry DEALERS:rofl:. Some of marked up the 2004 car $5,000 when they first came out and would NOT allow you to take a test drive without a deposit. After about 3 months of sitting on their lots, the prices came down to list, but still NO discounts. I went to look at 4 of them at a Pontiac dealer on Rt.18 in New Brunswick about 2 years ago. These cars were 2 years old, had sat in one place out in the open with no wax protection and looked beat. The dealer ONLY offered $2,000 off of list. The biggest drawback was the VERY small trunk, due to the relocation of the gas tank.

The decision to make a coupe on the new platform was put on hold because GM NA decided it would move to a sedan, and not a coupe for the next generation.
While the GTO didnt go on, the G8 is its replacement. Pontiac saw that people wanted a more functional vehicle, something that offerd varied powertrains, and sure enough the G8 came here and did well.
Fbody made money. Problem is that it's sales were dropping off and the capacity of the plant was getting way too low. The choice to kill the Camaro came in 1996, when instead of investing money into a 5th gen platform after 2002, the move was made to upgrade the car, and let it die. The former head of product development also decided that RWD would be left for Corvette and Caddy. Everything else would be turned to FWD.
Combine all that, and you have the end of teh 4th gen.

http://www.allgentransams.com/produc...s/pn_home.html

http://www.camaro-registry.com/production.htm

The combined cars, both Camaro and Firebird, selling in a broad range from around 20 to over 30k, complete with V6, V8, hard top, ttop, and convertable, in cloth and leather trims, outsold the GTO with one major option? Crazy.
US motoring public enjoyed it. Even the press. The styling wasnt polarizing like the Mustang, but it was a decent looking coupe. Only die-hard enthusiasts went crazy when it didnt look like a (insert favorate year GTO here).


Camaro is doing very well now, and its mostly due to its design and features, along with its historic power. Camaro gets an overhaul in 18 months, along with a convertable and high performance model.
We shall see what the Z28 brings us.

Total Camaro produced from 1998-2002: About 236,000
Total Camaros produced in 1984 alone: 261,591

Those numbers are worth a laugh or two.