close doesn't count on the track lol

"although they won't overheat and fade" - kind of important when you are running willow springs or gingerman for 30 minutes plus at a time.

ABC & TC makes a car like that much more drivable, do not downplay that. steilow indicated when he got the ABS dialed in on the red devil car his laps time improved - and that was after he custom designed his own floater rear setup so the ABS readings were good at high speeds. i guess it's freaky when ABS fails at 125+. and he is no slouch driver.

F1 uses all that fancy ABS & TC too, must be for some reason.

oh, and if we don't modify the new Z you need to make that old car pass emissions too.

the conversation is not close. it is equal or better for $75,000. and I say no.

Tim hammers my point home here...

All the useful technology and track worthy parts are being partially wasted on a car that is 300 to 500lbs heavier than it needs to be - slowing it down in all axes of acceleration. I'm also going to throw in the idea that the new pony cars are aerodynamically inferior to previous generations, downforce aside.

Stick 90% of that technology and parts list into a lighter, more efficient car and you should go just as fast or faster. And we are talking about parts swapping, not to the Nth degree engineering here.

I'm not a fan of DSG, but it does make a car quicker. There are a lot of high end exotics that are faster with them than without and are easier to drive everyday too.

I think the issue here is that you can't just bolt some of this stuff on, at least for the price. $75k may seem like a lot but you do need to account for all of the time and custom development work it takes to update the older car. Retrofitting TC and ABS is not easy and/or cheap. Nor are all of the body/chassis mods that need to be made to fix wacky weight distribution and suspension design. At some point it will probably be a 2nd gen by VIN and body only.

IMO the new Z is not a bargain but you can't build a similar car for 75k.


And just curious, why all the DSG hate?

Bugati Veyron = 1000hp at over 2 tons and its cheap enough to put in a Golf.

The Z28 comes with some cool toys but what is left out doesn't make sense to me when looking at the mark up. GM keeps coming out with performance cars claiming to have a world class pedigree but they are missing world class performance parts.

-Tim

Within a second of each other on the same track is close. Not talking 4 or 5 seconds here.

30 minutes is a short race. I have a chumpcar customer who runs between 7 and 24 hours straight on a 13" 4 piston 2pc rotor brake kit in his 3rd gen. As the car is about 3,000lbs it never overheats the brakes, even when running at a constant 99%.

A lot of performance cars use ABS and TC as a crutch for having parts way too powerful to be controlled by you brain, gut, and feet. As an example, those super powerful turbocharged AMG Mercedes need TC to be able to not spin the tires to Chicago - they have so much power that the tires could only wish to put it all to the ground, even at higher speeds. Another example is how you need ABS on the 2014 Z28 due to the amount of grip the composite brakes can give - way too much for the 305 width soft compound tires they stick on them.

Now if you ask me is the new Z28 going to be a more enjoyable, less taxing car to drive for a 45 minute session on VIR, I would absolutely say yes. Although there is a sense of accomplishment of sitting in a pool of sweat, not being able to carry yourself out of a car after a long track session in a violent, 100% attention required car.

F1 uses ABS and TC to keep those cars on the road and lap times fast & consistent. No one is capable of driving a car like that without those aids for more than a lap or two.

Not the same trans.

The premise carries. If there are versions of value and durability sufficient to install in cars ranging from 1/4 to 14 times the price I am sure there is something available.

-Tim

Well, as an FYI, according to the VW study course the max torque for the "regular" DSG is 258 lb-ft.

And I'm not saying something couldn't be designed to work, only that the price to make it available might push the price of the vehicle much higher than they want it to be.

so it doesn't have a shifter setup you like. what other world class performance parts is it missing?

Void the second it hits a track

The article you posted said they weren't factoring in the brakes. So you can't use them to debunk me

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/h...y-flowtie.html

Found this interesting

C5, c6, several porches, 4th gen,

I would engine swap a solstice/sky, miata, rx7, new frs thing before I used a 5th gen.

Not true GM will warranty the car if you break it at the track. as long as you follow the break in period before taking it to the track. In one of my videos that give you the welcome for my ZL1, Al Oppenheiser says they want you to bring it to the track and if you happen to blow an engine at the track GM will replace it. I have to find that video.

I would like to see the first person that tries to use that and see what gm back pedals too. Ford claimed they were gonna cover the raptors and have refused a few people that have broken them off road

GM is trying to be like Porsche with this level of interesting, but useless information.

I can see that, but I am sure it has occurred because the zl1 has been out since 2012. The welcome videos discuss taking the car to the track and there is one video just on what to do when you take it so I think it would be pretty hard for GM not keep there claims. There is a whole discussion on this in another forum and since each dealership is owned individually I guess it comes down to the dealer honoring the warranty.

This is what i can find so far:
The ZL1 comes with a track warranty - meaning you can go to a test n' tune and break your axle, GM will cover it.

What you can't do is sign up for a race/competition - that voids the warranty.

But again if they find that it was abuse of the car and not actual part failure Im sure they will find a way to screw you.

This guy says it doesn't?

I guess with that first line, there should be deep pockets to pick up this toy and beat up on some yuppies!

The whole article was a good read, I suggest everyone in here go through it to really appreciate the car and the work put into it. This was another good exert to answer some questions here.

While you ARE correct (and I mis-read the article), it doesn't debunk the overall argument that you can't build it for less with a new car :wink:

why? isn't it more fun to bash gm for not building fast cars and bash the fast car they build? because usually its the same people who do both. or if they pulled a ford and dropped a pile of HP in a poor chassis and got spanked on the track the complaints would roll. So GM can't win. So good for them for building a camaro that beats cars twice its price and to hell with the interweb complainers. It's a halo car where the halo shines bright and that is good for all us camaro fans.

its a helluva car but to me this just feels wrong. although its probably worth every single penny, the camaro has always been a bang for your buck platform...even though the z28 has a rich heritage in racing, the camaro also has a rich heritage of being affordable. i guess it is an ''affordable'' race car but seeing 75k on the sticker of a camaro is just mind boggling for some...myself included.

that said, i cant wait to see one in person :D

Adjusted price is similar to a Baldwin-Motion car from the late 60's.

Don't get me wrong, its awesome that GM is making kick ass all around cars like this. I am with nasty, its great that GM is making a sweet ass car like this, but the price tag is still a shocker to me. And def throws into question whether it will actually be used to the full extent of what 75k gets you as far as race car stuff.

IE like what Mike was saying.. if I have a shiny new 75k car I certainly wouldn't wanna get it dinged up etc.

Car pricing is absurd, I will stick to my old style LT1. Even switching to trucks, a nice diesel is in the sky pricing these days. Inflation, gah.

I skimmed right over James posting that rotors are 5k. Just thinking about brake jobs has my head spinning right now....

And I don't think they can cut the carbon ceramic rotors. So it's new ones at every brake job. Maybe multiple times a season if used for intended purpose

that's the price of racing