Starter Issues (again) - NJFBOA - Home of New Jersey's Camaros and Firebirds

Untamed · 06-24-2007, 08:11 PM

Car was running and driving just fine this past Winter, when I tried to start it three weeks ago. The starter would spool up, but wouldn't engage the fly wheel. I removed the starter and took it to Autozone to test it - tested fine (according to their machine). They said the yoke extended like it was supposed to.

I checked the flywheel - no teeth broken, no unusual wear. After I hooked the starter back up, I now get nothing. The starter doesn't even spool now. The wiring appears correct - I put it all back together the way it was. I haven't checked to see if any juice is reaching the starter though.

Assuming I fix the wiring problem, has anyone had a similiar problem with the starter - having it spin without contacting the flywheel? The only driving I've done has been under 30mph in a storage facility, so the flywheel couldn't have been affected.

Does anyone have an extra starter lying around I can borrow to test out some theories? An LT1 starter would be ideal since its a lot lighter.

bobb1589 · 06-24-2007, 08:58 PM

wait... is it or is it not contacting the flywheel? if it is contacting the flywheel, and it isnt spinning try using a flywheel wrench to turn the engine?

Untamed · 06-25-2007, 08:18 AM

No it wasn't contacting the flywheel. I could hear the starter spool, but it just seemed to spin in place as if the yoke wasn't extending to make contact with the flywheel. There wasn't any apparent damage to either the starter or the flywheel - no missing teeth.

I'd like to borrow an LT1 starter (because it's lighter) to see if its the wiring, the starter, or just my stupidity.

camaro2you · 06-25-2007, 11:00 AM

Its the starter, those tests dont tell you anything, the starter can test find on the machine because there not under any load, but as soon as you but it up to a motor no go.

BonzoHansen · 06-25-2007, 01:31 PM

I probably have a starter you could borrow. But it would be a 'full size'.

Untamed · 06-25-2007, 02:08 PM

Thanks Scott. Big Jon has an LT1 I'm gonna grab sometime this week. I honestly hope its the starter - I dont want to trace wires all over, testing them.

Sucks too because this starter was a rebuild from Autobone that I drove on maybe... 8 times in 6 months, with weeks in between each drive. No more rebuilds - new only.

Batman · 06-25-2007, 07:28 PM

Did you shim it all when you installed it? If not try throwing a shim or 2 in.

Untamed · 06-26-2007, 07:39 PM

I didn't shim the starter when I replaced it with the current one. The car seemed to run fine for a whlie, though I admit the startup was rough each time.

I've heard of shimming a starter, but don't know what that entails. Just litterally stick thin pieces of something between the starter and block, next to the two bolts, or somewhere else? How will I know the optimum engagement point for the yoke on the flywheel (ie. how many shims to use)?

Thanks for the help guys!

HardcoreZ28 · 06-26-2007, 07:47 PM

You can get a shim kit in the HELP section of any parts store. I believe the rough way of judging it is to get the pinion out of the starter and meshed with the flywheel by hand and you want to be able to fit a paperclip between the two gears

BonzoHansen · 06-26-2007, 10:06 PM

Shims move the starter away from the FW, don't they? If the gear is missing the FW I'm not sure they would help. Or am I imagining this wrong?

Untamed · 06-27-2007, 08:25 AM

The GM service manual shows a slight gap between the teeth of the pinion and the flywheel teeth, but with the plastic shroud around the flywheel, I can't see them match up. Do I have to take that plastic shroud off first, match them up, slide in the shims, bolt it down, then replace the shroud? Looks like the trans pan overlaps that shroud, so kind of a pain in the butt to deal with.

BonzoHansen · 06-27-2007, 09:00 AM

I think you should be able to pull that cover off w/o much trouble. Maybe get it in the air, pull the coil wire and have someone crank it while you look from underneath.

What is it doing, you hear the starter spinning?

Untamed · 06-27-2007, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

I think you should be able to pull that cover off w/o much trouble. Maybe get it in the air, pull the coil wire and have someone crank it while you look from underneath.

What is it doing, you hear the starter spinning?

Before I removed the starter this past weekend, I would hear the starter spin when turning the key. I could hear it spool, but it wasn't grabbing the flywheel.

I removed the starter this past weekend, took it to autozone to test. They say the starter is fine. I put the starter back into place, hook everything back up, turn the key, and now get nothing. I -believe- I replaced all the wiring correctly, however the lack of any starter activity now calls that into question.

Assuming I have the wiring right, I want to try another starter to see if mine is the problem. If I borrow a starter that is known to work fine and nothing happens, I need to fix the wiring first.

In either case, I want to make sure the next starter I mount in there, will line up with the flywheel correctly. So pulling the plastic shroud seems like the best way to visibly inspect the mechanical interaction while someone else turns the key. However that shroud looks like its overlapped by the trans pan. I really dont want to drain the trans if I can help it.

In addition to all that, I guess I need a shim kit to make sure everything lines up correctly. I have never shimmed a starter before so can't imagine how to do that right now, other than shoving something between the starter and block, near the two bolts. Is that the right place?

This project is taking far longer, and more energy, than expected. Damn this car hobby! <shakes fist> Learning as I go is slowing things way down as well.

HardcoreZ28 · 06-27-2007, 10:44 AM

The plastic inspection cover comes off in 2 minutes....4 10mm bolts....tranny doesn't interfere. You are correct on the shim placement. Should be able to do it by hand without cranking the car over...that could get dangerous.

I know this is going to sound like a very very dumb question but given your space and time constraints....you did make sure the battery was reconnected after reinstalling the starter right?

BonzoHansen · 06-27-2007, 11:43 AM

..and the starter wire (purple?) is in the right place?

You got a test light?

Untamed · 06-27-2007, 12:32 PM

Yeah the battery was all hooked up - dome light came on inside, open door chime with keys in ignition came on, etc.

The purple wire was on the small post below and to the right of the triple wire connection on the larger post. As far as I can tell, I put it all back where it belongs. Gonna jack the car up again on Saturday and start fiddling around with the wires if I cant borrow another starter.

Untamed · 06-30-2007, 01:17 PM

Ok I rearranged the wires as they are seated on the two posts on the starter. After turning the key, I now get that clicking sound, telling me the starter is getting power, but not engaging.

So I took the inspection cover off and snapped a picture of the starter as it currently sits. Bolted this way, does it look like the yoke will extend? Does it look like it will engage the flywheel if it did extend? What would prevent the starter from engaging, even though it seems to be receiving power now?

If I have to shim it, would that actually help it, or does it look like it needs to be moved (relative to this picture) up?

I took a second picture thats more straight up and down so you can see how close (how far?) the starter is away from the flywheel. Does this look right?

camaro2you · 06-30-2007, 04:09 PM

I still think its a bad starter.

06-30-2007, 09:55 PM

how many times have you replaced the starter? If its an excessive amount then i would get a professional opinion on the flywheel. Its looks to be a fine distance away from the pictures. does the starter bolt to the engine? I know in my 80 it does and i know the distance is always right. I don't think shimming is the problem if the bendex isn't even catching the FW. From what i read, i would say bad starter. try a starter rebuild kit for 15 bucks before getting a whole new starter.

HardcoreZ28 · 07-01-2007, 07:06 AM

I also think it's the starter but you may want to check and see that you're getting the proper voltage from the battery and from the ignition switch.

WildBillyT · 07-01-2007, 10:59 AM

Dave,

First and foremost- make sure your battery is fully charged. If it is even a little low it may make the car appear to have a bad starter.

What I would do next is keep the starter off of the car but wire it up on the car and see if you can get it to activate and spin properly. If it does, then I would shim it and install it and try again. If it doesn't work then then (as they said above) you need to replace it.

WayFast84 · 07-01-2007, 02:23 PM

i have a starter you can have for free. i know one worked before but the one that was on my 400 i dont know if it worked or not. I presume so, Hit me up and you can pick up the starter and the console.

BonzoHansen · 07-01-2007, 09:16 PM

I'm on the volatge or starter train as well. I don't buy the shim need since it didn't need one before. I've never seen one needed in an instance where the same starter & block didn't need one before.

Untamed · 07-02-2007, 10:15 AM

Gonna hook my DD up to the TA's battery then turn the key and see if its voltage related. In the mean time, gonna pick up a starter from Wayfast just in case.

Thanks guys.

Untamed · 07-04-2007, 05:45 PM

Ok, solved.

As yall mentioned above, it was a low battery. After jumping it, the car ran and drove just fine. I wonder though if this is yet another indication of a bad alternator or wiring. The wires were loose on the alt last Winter.

I'll save that for another thread if I need to.

Thanks again!