long shot, but what about a very custom cage build? i forget if your car is hardtop or ttop but something along the lines of running the side upper cage bars where the main section of the top bracket are? kind of revising them higher so they are "in" the roof line of the car. then back down at the a and b pillars. basically making them part of the roof and windshield frame structure.
Because when his head hits that cage in an accident on the street with no helmet it might kill him
I understand what you are saying and all, but what is the difference if my head slams the bar or the ttop latch or the windshield frame or the door or the steering column? I think if you were in an accident that had enough inertia to overcome the stock belt and allow your head to reach any of those points, you are going to be lucky to survive in a stock car with air bags that are older than 10 years. From what I have been told, they are supposed to be retested then so that is a gamble as well. I can understand that the bars are a few inches in diameter so those points are coming closer to you. I just don't see pillows where they would cover. The windshield is really the only thing that has some give and that area isn't greatly effected. Could be my young and dumb mindset though
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dudbird113
So put some padding on that crap. Cant be a scary mary all your life.
I drive my car on the street with a bar and have never worried about hitting my head on it. My main hoop is padded but my head comes no where near hitting anything. At some point a full 10 point cage is going in and even then I still won't worry. If this car isn't your daily, why worry so much about the topic? Theres more times that a cage has saved lives than taken lives.
__________________ Twisted Minds Racing 2000 SS M6
9.71 @ 142
in most cases the cage bar is closer to your head and harder than most things listed, and properly has no give. steering columns are by design & law collapsible, steering wheels flex. dashes also give, etc. you are probably not hitting a windshield with a OE belt unless it fails, but glass gives too. The cage steel does not give at all.
I'm not sure of the best way to describe it or if this will come out good in text, but I'll try. Hitting a roll cage would be more a more concentrated hit. You hit a flat surface with a tiny bit of give you spread out the energy/impact. I'm at a loss for a really good analogy, but I guess would you rather smash my head into the flat part of some 3/4" plywood than the side. both will hurt. I suspect one hurts much more.
No old (I mean more than say 10 years) car is much great at side impacts. That is the reason for the proliferation of side impact airbags. But adding steel closer to your head can't be good for an unhelmeted, un-hans deviced head. And in a cage it's the bar that runs high front to back that worries me most. And if a car needs halo bars at a given power level, well, that is race only. Again we saw that happen not too long ago.
It's not the 135mph crash you need to worry about on the street. You can never be protected from every possibility. Using outlier examples to support an opinion is illogical. If your example changes one key point - distance to the head - you no longer have a valid comparison. You need to be protected from the 80% of things that do happen. It's getting t-boned by a 18 year old girl reading a text that runs a rad light at 30 mph. If you get hit on the passenger side you should walk out. With a cage you might not. I've seen guys locally driving cars with cages that I would not get in because of that scenario.
I'll add this personal note too. I had my car on the track at NJMSP. I had it up to at least 125. No problems, everything went great, I wanted to do it all day, and started planning for other track events in the future. I plan on adding a little more power soon that would make 140 in the same spot easily attainable. My car has no cage or even a bar. But the more I think about it, and the more I talk to smart people, the more I realize either it gets a cage and becomes a race car or I cannot be on those tracks. All I need is a rad hose to pop or the guy in front of me to oil the corner and my family is in trouble. And I know I am not alone in that reassesment as it was the talk at Optima. Street cars with more power than winston cup cars and drivers with far less ability = something bad is going to happen soon. The guys that ran the track event I went to are now revamping their series because they have the same thought process. So I get the whole crossroads decision. I'm just glad I have not had the time & money to overbuild my car without thinking it through to the end. Which I did not. I saw what 'other guys were doing' and felt I'd be ok. I was wrong.
I spent a good 30 minutes talking to Ron Sutton while I was at SEMA. He is a well respected long time professional race car builder. He confirmed and added to my fears, for good reason. He has just begun a safety series at Pro Touring and Lateral-G that so far I have found rather educational.
Last point to further muck it up. If you plan to insure your car for what it is worth using collectors insurance, etc., a bar or cage will greatly reduce the number of carriers that will cover you. For instance Hagerty will not.
Sure it will never happen to you. But we know a local family it happened to, not a made up scenario to scare you.
The only bar that you are concerned with, Scott, comes factory in my jeep....I understand all the points you are making too and agree that a passenger side based impact will send you head towards that spreader/halo bar but my car rolled off the assembly line like that. Maybe there is more space comparing the two platforms, I don't know. As far as a 6 point goes, no bar will interfere with any of the areas you mentioned aside from a door bar. I run removable bars, the most I'll suffer is going to be from the ankle biter as I never have the door bars in.
No matter what you do the sudden impact isnt going to prevent your brain from smashing into the inside of your skull.
and most wrecks have sudden stops. Oh, wait....
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarneyMobile
The simple answer would be, don't race at the track. If you want to race at the track, you know what you have to do.
I agree. I also liked your post about understanding the risks and using it on the street. I sense you understand you can't have it both ways without a risk in some aspect. I respectfully disagree with using it on the street primarily because of other people on the street, but you get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider
The only bar that you are concerned with, Scott, comes factory in my jeep....I understand all the points you are making too and agree that a passenger side based impact will send you head towards that spreader/halo bar but my car rolled off the assembly line like that. Maybe there is more space comparing the two platforms, I don't know. As far as a 6 point goes, no bar will interfere with any of the areas you mentioned aside from a door bar. I run removable bars, the most I'll suffer is going to be from the ankle biter as I never have the door bars in.
that is why I clarified the upper bar and not the lower door bar. I would likely use a 6pt in an occasional street car, knowing the back seats are 100% off limits to people. I understand we are talking about more than a 6 pt to pass NHRA tech at the power in question. to be in spec the cage bar is most likely closer than the one in your jeep. and a few inches may be the difference in both whether the head hits the bar, or how hard it hits it. If it needs a halo that is not even remotely comparable
I also don't know if the jeep comparo should let you be comfortable.
I dunno, maybe I'm just too reading it too black and white here.
If you wanna go "x" fast at the track you need to abide by the rules or risk getting tossed. Having a full cage to run that speed is required. If you wanna drive it on the street and feel "comfy" then you have to sacrafice something somewhere. Speed at the track or headroom or make a strict track car or something.
__________________ 2001 Trans Am WS6 •SLP Loudmouth II •UMI Suspension •12.857 @ 109.57
1996 Trans Am WS6 •Pacesetter Longtubes •Strange 12 Bolt •Spohn Suspension •11.152 @ 123.85
I dunno, maybe I'm just too reading it too black and white here.
If you wanna go "x" fast at the track you need to abide by the rules or risk getting tossed. Having a full cage to run that speed is required. If you wanna drive it on the street and feel "comfy" then you have to sacrafice something somewhere. Speed at the track or headroom or make a strict track car or something.
I mean it's good as in I think it highlights that people make assumptions that seem perfectly logical on the surface but when you look deeper those assumptions are not so logical anymore. And if you are building a car you have to think ahead and be honest about intended use. I have absolutely made the same flawed assumptions at times.
Are we really comparing to a jeep? Which has had extensive tests done by the dot and factory, to a race cage that joe schmoe installed one weekend?
Doesn't seem to do too well. Imagine a full size adult in the back, head is nailing the rear bar. Imagine a Front Passenger, probably wind up near the same fate. Just because it rolls off of the assembly line, doesn't mean its A-ok.
You guys act like your going to get into a wreck on purpose. If we wanted a safe car we woulda bought a 5 star crash rated car or what not and not a f body. Just like we know the consequences of the speed involved with our modded cars. Its like having a 700hp car and complaining on gas mileage sucking.
__________________
94 TA GT. Stock 350, cam, exhaust
1. if you want to run at the track and be legal, you need a 10 point
2. if you dont want to put the safety equipment in it then dont race at the track
I have a 6point bar and i feel way safer in the car over a stock production car
you cant say "if you have a bar or cage its worse in an accident" you say "said person" died because they hit their head on the bar, there are always freak accidents
some people are alive today from wearing belts and theres people alive today from not wearing belts
and Bonzo, if you want to go faster on the road course you dont need to add power, add better brakes and tires and seat time. power is the last thing you do to go faster
-brandon
flame suit on
__________________
01 Z06- blown (for now ) 10.40 @ 140.7
99 M3- NASA #181
00TA- H/C/I= 10.83 @ 130 1.58 493hp/424tq SOLD www.fquick.com/Demonicbird00
1. if you want to run at the track and be legal, you need a 10 point
2. if you dont want to put the safety equipment in it then dont race at the track
I have a 6point bar and i feel way safer in the car over a stock production car
you cant say "if you have a bar or cage its worse in an accident" you say "said person" died because they hit their head on the bar, there are always freak accidents
some people are alive today from wearing belts and theres people alive today from not wearing belts
and Bonzo, if you want to go faster on the road course you dont need to add power, add better brakes and tires and seat time. power is the last thing you do to go faster
-brandon
flame suit on
No suit needed. I agree 100%. The idea of adding more power is what led my thinking down a particular path, all of which you touched on. The nut behind the wheel needs to be tightened.
My point is really mitigating risk - staying safe in the the 80%. I tend to think in the old 80/20 rule. You can't anticipate freak stuff, etc. - that's the 20%. I do not see where a cage (not a 4 or 6 pt) in the street is a good idea because IMO you've now added risk in situations that fall in the to the 80% category. I think adding a cage increases the likely hood of injury in more instances than helps in routine street driving. Which to me is very often under 50mph.
When does a cage help on the street? A rollover? If you rollover a car in the street I suspect you will have more of a chance of making contact than most regular accidents, not less - unless you have your harness & HANS on. So does the cage help in the 20%? Maybe, maybe not. Might it negatively impact crumble zones so the car does not absorb energy the way it is designed to? I don't know, I'm not really educated on it. But I know they talk about energy dissipation when indy cars disintegrate.
There are way more people alive today because of wearing seat belts than not. There are cases that a belt may have been problematic, but I think those cases are outliers and cannot be used in a logical discussion. Belts help in the 80% bucket (although I bet in the cases of belts it more like 99%)
You guys act like your going to get into a wreck on purpose. If we wanted a safe car we woulda bought a 5 star crash rated car or what not and not a f body. Just like we know the consequences of the speed involved with our modded cars. Its like having a 700hp car and complaining on gas mileage sucking.
so your point is you can't be safe and go fast? Or try to minimize the risks?
so your point is you can't be safe and go fast? Or try to minimize the risks?
BTW the new camaro is 5 star crash rated.
Won't be when a cage changes the effectiveness of the factory crumple points. Which has been matts entire point in this thread. Things that make you safer in one arena will cause counter effects in the others.
Solution. Cage the thing and drive the gmc
__________________ So much stupid, so little time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79CamaroDiva
It started before I drove your car. I just have to look at it the wrong way and your car poops parts.
This is when you start to realize that driving what amounts to a race car on the street comes with some inherent risks. By rights, if the car is going to see track time it needs a cage. No matter what you might be thinking now, at some point you will want to see what it can do all-out. Eventually, you will be thrown out of every track near you if you persist in running with no/not enough cage. That's if you don't wreck and kill yourself. However, driving on the street with a caged car has it's own risks, and daily driving a car with 5-points is a PITA.
The bar/cage attaches to the strongest points in the car, like the front subframe and torque boxes, and creates a safety capsule to a point. Many new cars are designed like this, especially the little smart cars etc. I'm sure much of that was drawn from racing and f1 especially, they seem to be the cutting edge with driver protection in an accident from what I gather.
) 10.40 @ 140.7
