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08-25-2014, 01:07 PM
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#26
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NJFBOA Co-Founder
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: All up in your kool aid!
Posts: 12,235
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I don't know if Josh at JS Performance has any of the reverse bleed equipment but I would certainly trust him to sort things out. Sorry I don't know of anyplace closer.
Or you could simplify and just get rid of all that fancy schmancy anti lock safety BS and go with a nice Wilwood triple reservoir manual set up. Cleans up the under hood by getting rid of that big ugly vacuum line and just happens to save a good bit of weight.
-Tim
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08-25-2014, 02:36 PM
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#27
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13 Second Club / Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Franklin Lakes, NJ
Posts: 8,689
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Haha I would love to do that but it would be a lot more fab work than I am able to do. Josh's is a bit too far for a brake bleed.
I found a few reverse bleed kits on Google. Will that do? For example: http://www.autoanything.com/brakes/74A5484A0A0.aspx
Going to do more research to see what it takes. I'd much rather buy a tool that will help me moving forward. The local speed shop recommended I reach out to a shop in Pompton Plains that a Vette guy they know uses, so that will be the fallback for now. I just need to get the car drivable ASAP.
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08-25-2014, 05:26 PM
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#28
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Meet Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: brick/pt. pleasant beach
Posts: 19,341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwikz28
I finally got my car buttoned up (mostly on account of Midwest Chassis dragging their feet). I replaced the master cylinder (bench bled), added the wilwood prop valve, replaced the rear calipers with reman units and then bled the system. The brake pedal feels worse. It sinks a bit after you build up pressure when the car is off, and feels like you're steppin in thick mud while the car is on. I didn't bother trying to drive it. The pedal doesn't go all the way to the floor, but there is a good amount of sinking after it builds pressure.
Strangely, the pressure issue I was having before is fixed. When I'm bleeding, the pressure is strong. I checked thoroughly and there are no leaks to be found. Everything looks good.
I'll pay someone to fix it. I'm serious, PM me if you are willing.
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If you have the wheels in the air and are holding the brakes, can you turn the tires by hand? If you have good pressure, I would imagine you just have to do a few low speed stops gradually increasing pressure to get the pedal to firm up. Its a normal master on the car? Where did you install the prop valve and why? Just for basics, you have the calipers mounted correctly with the bleeders up and your hoses aren't flipped around or otherwise improperly mounted/run?
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08-26-2014, 10:08 AM
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#29
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Highland Mills, NY
Posts: 1,915
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There may be a few euro shops that might be able to help you out. You still in suffern?
__________________
2000 Camaro SS 610rwhp/570rwtq LS2 440, 12 bolt 3.73, tranzilla t56
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08-26-2014, 03:01 PM
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#30
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13 Second Club / Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Franklin Lakes, NJ
Posts: 8,689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider
If you have the wheels in the air and are holding the brakes, can you turn the tires by hand? If you have good pressure, I would imagine you just have to do a few low speed stops gradually increasing pressure to get the pedal to firm up. Its a normal master on the car? Where did you install the prop valve and why? Just for basics, you have the calipers mounted correctly with the bleeders up and your hoses aren't flipped around or otherwise improperly mounted/run?
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The brakes hold the wheels, but I doubt they will be able to do any emergency stops to trip the ABS unless I find some gravel or something. I did the prop valve because my ABS is quite intrusive, so I figured I could balance the brake force to get the car to stop harder under threshold braking. All the hoses and bleeders are on correct for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFirstZ
There may be a few euro shops that might be able to help you out. You still in suffern?
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I'm going to try that reverse bleeder kit before throwing in the towel. I did a bit of research and it seems to be geared towards problems like this. After that, I'm going to call around, but I'm in Mahwah now by Ramapo College.
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08-27-2014, 05:32 AM
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#31
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NJFBOA Co-Founder
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: All up in your kool aid!
Posts: 12,235
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When you reverse bleed there is one thing that usually isn't mentioned, put something under the pedal so it is held all the way up. Most of the reverse bleeding kits are only about 10-15 psi which isn't enough to lift the pedal and get the last bit of volume needed into the master.
-Tim
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08-27-2014, 11:23 AM
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#32
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13 Second Club / Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Franklin Lakes, NJ
Posts: 8,689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER
When you reverse bleed there is one thing that usually isn't mentioned, put something under the pedal so it is held all the way up. Most of the reverse bleeding kits are only about 10-15 psi which isn't enough to lift the pedal and get the last bit of volume needed into the master.
-Tim
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Thanks for the tip, Tim. Will keep that in mind. I have a new issue with the rear axle being extremely off center when I lowered it to the ground, which will need to be remedied first.
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08-28-2014, 08:32 AM
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#33
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13 Second Club / Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Franklin Lakes, NJ
Posts: 8,689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider
If you have good pressure, I would imagine you just have to do a few low speed stops gradually increasing pressure to get the pedal to firm up.
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FYI- You were spot on with this. Pedal is very firm right now, but the stopping power still isn't great enough to lock up the tires on pavement. Basically, once you push harder, it just gets mushy and doesn't brake as hard as you would like. Going to try some other methods this weekend and report back.
Thank you guys for your help.
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08-28-2014, 10:29 AM
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#34
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Meet Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: brick/pt. pleasant beach
Posts: 19,341
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Its tough to diagnose this without being hands on with it. I'm a little confused though, you are trying to lock the wheels up on a car with abs? What you are describing though with the mushy feel to the pedal sounds like there is still issues. Where did you add the prop valve? Sounds like there could be issues with the rear brakes.
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08-28-2014, 10:41 AM
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#35
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NJFBOA Co-Founder
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: All up in your kool aid!
Posts: 12,235
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Do you still have an original master and booster? Seems odd that the pedal would have pressure then fade as you pushed harder. Almost sounds like the booster isn't holding pressure or regaining properly. Air in the system is usually mushy right from the top.
Not exactly sure how to test a booster, I'm sure there is a way to get a vacuum gauge on it to see if it is bleeding pressure or struggling to regain.
-Tim
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08-29-2014, 09:17 AM
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#36
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13 Second Club / Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Franklin Lakes, NJ
Posts: 8,689
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I only replaced the master and added the prop valve between the master and the abs block. The prop valve is wide open so that shouldn't be a problem. I tried a few times to trip the ABS but there just isn't enough braking force to get the tires to slip.
Tim- what you are describing is what is happening. It's just that the pedal builds pressure right away, but then fades as you try and push harder.
I got that reverse bleeder in but I'm going away for the weekend and didn't get a chance to do it this week. If the new bleeder doesn't work, then I'm going to have a professional diagnose it. At least I know the car is driveable at this stage.
Again, thanks for the help guys. I know its hard to diagnose over the internet.
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09-02-2014, 07:40 AM
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#37
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Meet Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: brick/pt. pleasant beach
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What are you trying to do with the prop valve? A hard stop on gravel or sand will trip the abs.
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09-02-2014, 10:22 AM
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#38
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13 Second Club / Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Franklin Lakes, NJ
Posts: 8,689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider
What are you trying to do with the prop valve? A hard stop on gravel or sand will trip the abs.
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Historically, the ABS in this car would be quite intrusive. I figured I could balance out the braking power to higher the braking threshold. I figured since everything was out, might as well do it now. It was a cheap part anyway (or at least relatively).
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09-08-2014, 03:27 PM
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#39
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hawthorne, New Jersey
Posts: 516
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Im not sure If i would go back to the ABS block and MC after doing the wheels. If your getting nice amounts of fluid at the wheel id be afraid of introducing more air by going back up the line.
Never really gave it much thought...I was always taught furthest from master too, and apply that to the wheels..but if i had a complete new system or a lot of air I would do MC first, then abs block, then RR LR LF RF..hrm..if it works..it works lol
Most important thing Tim said was pushing all the way down. I cant tell you how many times ive had brake jobs get worse after bleeding because the guy I put in the car to pump the pedal was doing it half heartedly..usually busy texting or something. It shouldnt be a easy casual thing for the pumper..he should be pushing down hard and making sure he follows through with pressure as the pedal drops when you open the bleeder. It should feel like a leg workout. Move the seat up all the way if your short like me and cant get it all the way to the floor!
EDIT: Did you check the depth of the hole in the back of the new master? Was it the same as the old master? Sometimes they can get remann'd funny and that will throw you for a loop too. Same goes when replacing a booster..gotta make sure the pushrod inside is the same as the one your taking out.
A booster thats leaking vac wont give you a soft pedal, in fact it would be overly hard. You can disconnect the booster (pluggin the vac line of course) and start the car and the pedal should be like a rock. The booster is the assist. Without it you have manual brakes. It also has no bearing on anything while the car is off, except the fact the lil pushrod inside it has to push against the master properly.
Last edited by 89 Trans Am WS6; 09-08-2014 at 03:39 PM.
Reason: Cant read. Didnt realize I was at the end of page 1, not the end of the thread..lol. :(
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09-09-2014, 09:20 AM
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#40
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NJFBOA Co-Founder
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: All up in your kool aid!
Posts: 12,235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwikz28
Historically, the ABS in this car would be quite intrusive. I figured I could balance out the braking power to higher the braking threshold. I figured since everything was out, might as well do it now. It was a cheap part anyway (or at least relatively).
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I haven't heard of this being done before, please keep us posted on the results.
How do you define "intrusive" as far as the ABS kicking in? Are you referring more to the balance and stability under threshold braking or more do you feel the ABS is cutting into the braking force before it is entirely necessary?
ABS is a great driving aid if it is balanced properly and being used properly. ABS, just like standard brakes, work best when you roll onto them. Roll quickly, but still roll into the pedal. The idea being to have the chassis weight move onto the suspension and settle into the tires before you get to the bottom of the pedal. If a driver only stabs the brakes, expecting the ABS to make up the difference, it will bounce the suspension just the same as standard brakes and reduce the amount of braking traction available.
I am going to ask around among the contacts and sites and see if I can turn up any specific knowledge on either mechanically balancing or a way to reprogram the ABS system. It is possible that among all of your upgrades you are operating to the far edges or outside of the factory tables.
-Tim
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09-09-2014, 09:37 AM
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#41
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Admin.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamilton, NJ
Posts: 20,152
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reprogramming ABS? huh
where in the system is this prop valve you installed? what wilwood front calipers are you running?
Reman m/c, ugh. Why cheap out there? But i don't think that is your issue. Sorry, i digressed.
You can buy pressure gauges to measure fluid psi at the calipers.
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09-09-2014, 10:15 AM
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#42
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Meet Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: brick/pt. pleasant beach
Posts: 19,341
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I'm a little confused too. Before the abs was too intrusive. Now, it isn't intrusive enough?
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09-09-2014, 11:00 AM
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#43
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13 Second Club / Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Franklin Lakes, NJ
Posts: 8,689
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When braking power was strong, it felt like the ABS was constantly interfering under threshold braking. Basically, I assumed it was a matter of balance, which is why I added the prop valve. I don't suspect there is anything wrong with my ABS block, aside from the suspected trapped air. The issue I had with my brakes predates the addition of the prop valve. Right now, its installed between the MC and ABS block. It's wide open right now, and shouldn't be contributing to the issue at all. Prop valve is a wilwood unit with prebent lines from SJM Manufacturing. Front calipers are Wilwood SL4R with porterfield pads all around.
I went with a reman master just because I didn't know what else to get. I did a quick search and it seems that was the common replacement. I stuck with Centric for the reman because I've had success with their parts in the past.
By way of an update, the reverse bleeder helped a lot, but the pressure was so high, the fluid was gushing out of the threads of the bleeder screws of the rear calipers. Pedal firmed up a bit more and the braking power is decent but not enough. I've given up on it, and am looking for a shop that can handle it. The pedal holds good pressure and there's no leaks to be found, so I don't know what else I'm doing wrong here.
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09-09-2014, 11:08 AM
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#44
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NJFBOA Co-Founder
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: All up in your kool aid!
Posts: 12,235
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Have you been able to drive it to determine if it still a better initially then fading? That is the part that worries me. I have a feeling that getting the pedal feel to some level of consistency throughout operation is going to be the key to solving this.
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09-09-2014, 12:19 PM
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#45
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13 Second Club / Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Franklin Lakes, NJ
Posts: 8,689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER
Have you been able to drive it to determine if it still a better initially then fading? That is the part that worries me. I have a feeling that getting the pedal feel to some level of consistency throughout operation is going to be the key to solving this.
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Oh, it's definitely not fading. Pedal doesn't move if you place constant pressure. However, if you increase pressure, its spongy.
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09-15-2014, 07:41 PM
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#46
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13 Second Club / Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Franklin Lakes, NJ
Posts: 8,689
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Took the car to a Radical dealership this morning for a pressure bleed. I figured they work on high end cars all day so this should be a breeze for them. I got the car back not too long ago, and the pedal is actually softer than when I gave it to them. They said they did find a bunch of air in the lines.
Not sure whether to go back to them or just cut my losses and find a different shop that can diagnose the problem. I'm seriously stumped right now. I don't know whats happening and its really depressing. It's holding pressure and they said it felt great when they took it out for a drive. It's definitely not great.
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09-19-2014, 10:29 AM
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#47
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Co-Founder / Site Admin
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 22,473
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I would call them up and go for a ride with them - preferably with the same tech that drove it before you got it back. See if he notices a difference between how it felt before and how it feels now.
- Justin
__________________
1999 Camry - Beigemobile DD
2002 Suburban - Wife's DD
2004 Grand Cherokee - Not running / Project / Selling?
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09-19-2014, 11:35 AM
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#48
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13 Second Club / Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Franklin Lakes, NJ
Posts: 8,689
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I actually called Wilwood and got some tips as to what needs to be done. Those calipers don't like pressure bleeders, so he told me to rebleed the fronts with the two person method. HUGE difference. It's definitely getting there, and its certainly driveable the way it is now.
I sold my old wheels to a kid with the six piston version of these calipers and asked what he did. He told me without using a Tech2 to autobleed the ABS a few times and rebleeding each time after, you won't get a good pedal. I've always wanted a snap on red brick which can autobleed also, so I'm going to look for one to use and keep trying. I'm much more hopeful now.
Thanks everyone for the tips. I'm really appreciative, albeit frustrated with this car.
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09-19-2014, 12:26 PM
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#49
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Co-Founder / Site Admin
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 22,473
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Glad to hear that things are moving forward at least. Hopefully autobleeding the ABS will be the last part to getting everything you can from the new setup.
- Justin
__________________
1999 Camry - Beigemobile DD
2002 Suburban - Wife's DD
2004 Grand Cherokee - Not running / Project / Selling?
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09-19-2014, 12:41 PM
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#50
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13 Second Club / Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Franklin Lakes, NJ
Posts: 8,689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru2Chevy
Glad to hear that things are moving forward at least. Hopefully autobleeding the ABS will be the last part to getting everything you can from the new setup.
- Justin
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Thanks. I hope so too. I hate to give up on what I started.
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