My $0.02 on the new Camaro

[NastyEllEssWon]

if you bring it over to buick i see nothing wrong with calling it a Grand Sport. but leave the gnx for something boosted

[BonzoHansen]

Thus the GSX...Stage 1!!!

455 CI = 7.46L. Make something close!

[maroman88]

that SWEEET NYPD Caprice wagon has clear corners!!! lol

[nj85z28]

thats pretty disapointing..im a tall guy so that may be an issue if i ever decide to buy one.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by nj85z28

thats pretty disapointing..im a tall guy so that may be an issue if i ever decide to buy one.

Im 6'1 260 and there is plenty of leg, head, and everything room for the driver and passanger. So unless you are gunna buy one so that someone can drive you around while you are in the back seat, you should be ok.

One of the 15 Enthuisats asked to come on board the Camaro team was 6'4-6'5 and had no problem getting in and out of the car.
Thanks to its taller roof line, its a hell of a lot easier to get in and out of.

[GP99GT]

Originally Posted by nj85z28

thats pretty disapointing..im a tall guy so that may be an issue if i ever decide to buy one.

i'm 6'5" and i drive a 95 integra and a 90 mustang...both 5 speed...both dont have a tilt wheel

[thunder]

dang man im 6,2 and i struggle gettin in and out of an integra

[BonzoHansen]

The New Generation of Muscle
Breaking down the latest generation of muscle cars coming out of Motown, and how they compare head to head.
By Tom Wilson of MSN Autos
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/artic...umentid=999665

If it were only for a little more torque, we might be crowning our first 6-cylinder pony-car champ in the 304-horsepower Chevy Camaro LT. It’s already tops in price and mechanical innovation.

It’s a shame that the only thing more powerful than a Detroit muscle-car war is a dud economy. But recession or no, with the introduction of the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro, all three of Detroit’s automakers once again have a performance coupe in the showroom, and we’ve been eagerly sorting out how they rank.

Same, but Different

Often called pony cars because Ford’s Mustang started the segment way back in 1965, Detroit’s mass-appeal performance cars get their stuff from big engines in medium-size cars. Their other defining characteristic — affordability — comes from spreading cost over a three-tier range. At the entry level is always a smaller engine and softer suspension for daily driving comfort, reduced costs and bearable fuel economy. Today, such cars are V6-powered and, as always, generate approximately 60 percent of pony-car sales.

Next is the bread-and-butter V8 version, typically with a mildly warmed engine and enough style to tell the neighbors you didn’t buy the secretary’s car. Think Mustang GT or Camaro SS.

Topping the list are notably more expensive, limited-edition premium cars with fire-breathing engines and take-no-prisoners performance. These are the tire-smoking legends of supercharged fame. They get lots of attention in the press, but are more wheel spin than traction when it comes to the corporate bottom line. The two current examples are the Dodge Challenger SRT-8 and the just-released Ford Mustang Shelby GT500.

Crooked Start

Purely by chance, the current pony-car crop doesn’t line up evenly at the bench-racing starting line.

At Chrysler, the Dodge Challenger is well-established with a base V6, mass-appeal 5.7-liter V8 R/T and limited-edition SRT-8 versions. But following Dodge tradition, the Challenger is aircraft-carrier huge, meaning its engines are burdened with a significant weight and aerodynamic drag penalty.

The Mustang’s base V6, the 4.6 V8-powered GT and spanking new supercharged Mustang Shelby GT500 also follow the classic “good-better-best” lineup. Here, the 4.0-liter V6 is showing a little age. The GT’s V8 is right at the heart of the market, while the newly upgraded GT500’s supercharged 5.4 V8 is a quest to best the Chevrolet’s all-new Camaro.

Chevy’s just-released Camaro delivers the base LS and LT V6 and performance-happy SS V8 models, but its highly anticipated Z28 flagship now appears stillborn. Developed and ready for production, the exciting Z28 is not likely to appear while General Motors is under such scrutiny that President Barack Obama is dictating who’ll run the company.

A V8 World — Usually

Normally one could discount the entry-level V6 models as too mundane to matter in the pony-car segment. Such is definitely the case with Dodge’s anemic V6 Challenger. It’s simply too little engine in too much car. And while the Mustang V6 is well ahead of the 6-pot Challenger, it’s also not the stuff of legend. Certainly an adequate runabout, the 4.0-liter Ford is a bit of a buzzer by today’s standards.

Compare the Chevrolet Camaro, Dodge Challenger and Ford Mustang

Then there is the 6-cylinder Camaro. A smoothly sophisticated, 7000-rpm wailer, the first-rung Camaro engine tests well, posting acceleration numbers and have-some-fun thrust more in line with a small V8. Its 29 mpg fuel economy is a major plus in a 304-horsepower engine, too. The downside is a lack of low-rpm heave for casual maneuvering while cruising this 3,700-plus-pound, 6-cylinder car. For the performance enthusiast, the $22,995 V6 Camaro is a close call, and many will learn to love it. But red-meat eaters won’t consider it, and rightly so in this torque-happy market segment.

Finally, we reach the heart of the comparison, the V8s. Let’s immediately set aside two of the heavyweights: the Shelby GT500 and the Camaro Z28. The Camaro is out for the simple reason it doesn’t exist. Too bad, as matching it up with the GT500 would be a clash of titans.

The 2010 Mustang GT500 is most definitely in production — we just drove it — and it’s amazingly good. Sporting a supercharged 4-valve double-overhead-cam 5.4-liter aluminum V8, the uber-Mustang bangs out the quarter mile in the mid-12 seconds at up to 115 mph. This is the stuff of big-block legends, but with a 22 mpg highway fuel-economy rating, quiet cockpit and grown-up sophistication. The only issue is price. Hovering in the high $40,000 range, the top-tier GT500 isn’t mainstream enough for our prime-time discussion.

That leaves the Dodge Challenger and Challenger SRT-8, the Mustang GT and the Camaro SS. All of these are mass-appeal V8s, except for the SRT-8 Dodge, which, like the GT500 Shelby busts our wallet at just over $40,000. Furthermore, while the SRT-8 packs a 425-horse version of the 6.1 HEMI engine, thanks to the Challenger’s 4,100-pound curb weight, it’s a relatively pokey performer. Its 13.3-second quarter mile has nothing to say to the GT500, and even the Camaro SS does better for about $10,000 less. Second-tier performance coupled with first-tier pricing leaves the SRT-8 Challenger in a difficult spot.

Stepping back to the Challenger R/T means 372 horsepower and a mid-14-second quarter mile. That trails the Mustang GT by an honest second and is almost a second and a half behind the Camaro SS. Challenger R/T pricing starts at $29,320 but typically options up well past $35,000, and that’s no advantage relative to the Camaro SS or Mustang GT. Again, the Challenger can’t brag on performance or price.

At first, the Mustang GT appears underpowered at 315 ponies, but the more compact Ford weighs maybe 500 pounds less than the Challenger and about 350 pounds less than the Camaro SS. Thus, it quarter-miles in the low 13s, call it 13.3, and typically retails at $32,500 to nail down the market center.

Chevrolet clearly wanted to beat the Mustang GT with its Camaro SS, so it stuffed 426 torquey horsepower in the SS’s hefty 3,950-pound chassis. Toss in 25 mpg on the highway and factor in no gas-guzzler tax, then the Camaro, which starts at $30,995, starts to pull a few car lengths ahead of the crowd. That literally happens at the strip, where the Camaro SS just breaks into the high 12s for a class-leading mix of price and performance.

More Than Numbers

In the daily driving world, drag-strip time slips count for only so much, and here the Challenger scores critical points. Interior and trunk room far surpass the Camaro and Mustang, and it’s the only one of the three with a usable rear seat. Even so, Dodge fans love the presence and scale of a full-size performance car, and the giant Challenger certainly has that.

Mustang’s strength is all-around daily driving excellence. It’s more compact and easier to see out of, and it has the most sophisticated interior. While hush quiet, it’s also the most visceral, direct car of the three. Give it props for the only convertible option — or glass roof, for that matter.

Of course, most pony-car sales are heavily influenced by cosmetics and overall style. Brand loyalty is also stronger than in other market segments. Again, the Challenger R/T shades more pavement than the others, and is definitely in the running for the most handsome trophy. Its impassive interior design is a good match for the big exterior, as well.

Of course, love-starved Camaro fans will take one look at the Chevy’s fishnet-stocking curves, dream the 12-second dream and whip out their checkbooks. A smooth ride from the independent rear suspension and great handling won’t hurt, either.

Tough Decision

Ultimately, the point is that the Camaro, Challenger and Mustang are staggered rungs on the performance and style ladder. Where it matters, the V6 Camaro LT could be in the running for many thousands of dollars less, followed by the Mustang GT and topped by the Camaro SS in the bang-for-buck sweepstakes. But if dollars aren’t the issue, the Shelby GT500 overshadows them all, and in the subjective, drive-me-to-work reality, there are powerful trade-offs among all three. The Camaro SS has the advantage at the moment, but as forewarned, we’ll be happily debating this one for a long time.

Longtime Road & Track contributor Tom Wilson’s credits include local racing championships, three technical engine books and hundreds of freelance articles.
**************************************
Here is what I got out of this:

*The Challenger is only about looks. The V6 and small V8 are performanceless and would be our run and out handled by an 89 IROC, and the SRT8 is too slow too. It may have a useful back seat.
*The Mustang is the lightest, smallest of the group, but needs a SC to be fast.
*The Camaro is heavy, the V8 is capable, the V6 is a nice bargain. The SS should keep up with GT500s w/o much of an issue.
*The US government is screwing up GM.

Now back to my complaint about a useless back seat, echoed by the author. I know you’re all saying ‘it’s a Camaro, stop with the back seat’. My rebuttal – for a car that big & that heavy it could at least have a back seat area big enough for pre-teens to fit in. Hell, my 2nd gen does. It helps if you are using it as a secondary daily driver, like I would be.

[LTb1ow]

"The 2010 Mustang GT500 is most definitely in production — we just drove it — and it’s amazingly good. Sporting a supercharged 4-valve double-overhead-cam 5.4-liter aluminum V8, the uber-Mustang bangs out the quarter mile in the mid-12 seconds at up to 115 mph. This is the stuff of big-block legends, but with a 22 mpg highway fuel-economy rating, quiet cockpit and grown-up sophistication. The only issue is price. Hovering in the high $40,000 range, the top-tier GT500 isn’t mainstream enough for our prime-time discussion."

LOL LS1 cars run 12s with bolt ons.

[BigAls87Z28]

Im telling you Scott, its bigger then a 2nd gen. If you can fit your kids into the back of a 2nd gen, you can fit it into the back of a 5th.
And for its size, its 7 inches shorter then a 79 camaro, 2 inches longer then a 72.

I have personally sat in the back. Is it comfy? Not with my head against the roof, not really. Would it be fine for children? Yes.

[69BirdX]

Originally Posted by Shownomercy

"The 2010 Mustang GT500 is most definitely in production — we just drove it — and it’s amazingly good. Sporting a supercharged 4-valve double-overhead-cam 5.4-liter aluminum V8, the uber-Mustang bangs out the quarter mile in the mid-12 seconds at up to 115 mph. This is the stuff of big-block legends, but with a 22 mpg highway fuel-economy rating, quiet cockpit and grown-up sophistication. The only issue is price. Hovering in the high $40,000 range, the top-tier GT500 isn’t mainstream enough for our prime-time discussion."

LOL LS1 cars run 12s with bolt ons.

guy in my towns gt500 ran a 12.2 on street tires..........ls1 cant do that

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Im telling you Scott, its bigger then a 2nd gen. If you can fit your kids into the back of a 2nd gen, you can fit it into the back of a 5th.
And for its size, its 7 inches shorter then a 79 camaro, 2 inches longer then a 72.

I have personally sat in the back. Is it comfy? Not with my head against the roof, not really. Would it be fine for children? Yes.

Al, I'm gonna make an honest attmpt to look at it again, I'm taking my oversized 8 year old with me. I will report back good or bad. Tell you what, I'll be on your area 5/7. If there is one around you we can look at around 8pm we will go.

A 79 and a 72 have a 9" length differential?? That just shows me there is more to it than pure length, width, etc. The new one just looks bigger in all directions, quite the expanse of sheet metal.

[foff667]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

merge the fwd impala and malibu into one package. keep malibu namesake. move impala namesake to the g8. only reason they call it the lumina ss in other parts of the world is because the lumina is a very recognizable namesake. over here its just known as a crap mid 90s rehash of everything else they put out. overseas the impala would just be known as a fwd sedan as they never got the original muscle impalas

Thats not a half bad idea

[BonzoHansen]

My complaint with the current impala and malibu is the impala is not big enough to differentiate it form the malibu. The impala shoud be big enough to haul foff's family to poker night safely.

Chevy already has the RWD Camaro & Corvette. Give the G8 to Buick and make it a GSX.

[69BirdX]

Id like to see G8 go to buick...........give them a shot

[thunder]

buick today is way to soft to get the G8. it doesnt fit. i would rather see a proper impala

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by thunder

buick today is way to soft to get the G8. it doesnt fit. i would rather see a proper impala

What better way to 'toughen it up'?

[thunder]

but why bother toughening up buick. if GM made an Impala out of the G8 or hell even calling it a caprice like in other markets they would make a profit on police car sales alone

[NastyEllEssWon]

here are pics a friend of mine took of the legroom with the seat all the way back, the seat all the forward with a regular sized adult in it and the headroom of the regular sized adult. 6 foot even 190 lbs.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

here are pics a friend of mine took of the legroom with the seat all the way back, the seat all the forward with a regular sized adult in it and the headroom of the regular sized adult. 6 foot even 190 lbs.

WOOF. "Great back seat room" my ass...

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

WOOF. "Great back seat room" my ass...

No kidding.

[BonzoHansen]

Nice rear seat....

Originally Posted by thunder

but why bother toughening up buick. if GM made an Impala out of the G8 or hell even calling it a caprice like in other markets they would make a profit on police car sales alone

Life is not all Chevy! And Chevy may not want a big RWD car. Fleet sales must not be all you think they are cracked up to be since no one really seems to want that business real bad. You don’t see Toyota making fleet cars, do you? Sometimes I wonder why GM doesn’t do like Best Buy and Firestone and make a private label brand just for fleets. I’m sure there is some reason why that is a bad idea.

If you give Chevy everything then why keep Buick at all? GM now has 3 car lines – somewhat positioned along the lines as good, better, best. That is kind of how it was back in the good days. Chevy was the main line, B-O-P were considered a step up, and Cadillac was the prestige. GM has banged that all up in the past 30 years, and trying to maintain B-O-P was a big reason, and then add that to the sidetracks known as Saturn & SAAB it just got messy. They just could not make that many different cars/platforms. Now they can get back to their successful roots and stage Buick as the brand between Chevy & Cadillac. They can have a nice mix of overlapped platforms and brand specific platforms. Buick used to make great "businessman's hot rods" - GSX, Grand National, somewhat upscale performance options over the Chevy. Give the guy with a few more bucks that likes that kind of car an option. I am probably the demographic they are gunning for with Buick. GM needs to give me a reason to go look at Buick if they want me to buy more Buicks down the road.

Now Al posted another car that could be Buick bound. That might be cool. And Chevy can then make a new bigger car for the masses, which could include a fleet car offering.

[Untamed]

Wow, for us family types, that's a deal killer right there.

Man.

Well, hopefully there'll be a few G8's left summer 2010 when I'll be ready for the next car.

[BonzoHansen]

Right. For me that car would be my DD, which means the secondary family car. While rare would be the time all of us are in the car, but occasionally having one or both my sons in the car is not unreasonable. This car is too big & heavy for useless back seats. If it were smaller I’d understand more. How many potential buyers fall into that group? Hell, there are a number of people on this site that do. Chevy already makes a performance 2 door with no back seats. If I want a car with no back seats I’ll buy a vette.

But I promised Al I'd go look, so I will.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

Life is not all Chevy! And Chevy may not want a big RWD car. Fleet sales must not be all you think they are cracked up to be since no one really seems to want that business real bad. You don’t see Toyota making fleet cars, do you? Sometimes I wonder why GM doesn’t do like Best Buy and Firestone and make a private label brand just for fleets. I’m sure there is some reason why that is a bad idea.

The Camry was starting to gain some momentum in the fleet industry and the Prius was doing well. It's a shame Pontiac is going away, the Vibe was doing decent in the fleet industry. I'm sure Toyota will pick up the slack with the Matrix(another decent fleet seller).

The Taurus and Impala still reign as kings though(as far as cars go).