2012 T/A Rumor!!

[DevilDougWS6]

its still essentially the same car just different manufacturer. the body shape is the same, just different fascias and rear ends. just look at the shape of the windows, the hatch, the basic frame work outline is all the same.

[BonzoHansen]

It's detail, I know, but I think the only common sheet metal in 2nd gens are trunk lids, roofs and A-pillars. Possibly floor pan, not sure on that. I believe 1st gen firebird vs camaro is similar in lack of common parts. I think most people don't realize that. Just saying that the differences in sheet metal/body panels was greater 'back in the day', so I guess supporting part of zeeks theory.

[NJSPEEDER]

If GM comes out with a T/A or any version of the Zeta related to the Firebird it will simply prove that they haven't learned anything from the years of fighting themselves for sales. Too similar a vehicle to sell enough units to justify it.

[sweetbmxrider]

didn't pontiac outsell gm every generation's run?

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

didn't pontiac outsell gm every generation's run?

That makes no sense what so ever...but

Did Pontiac outsell Chevy every generation? Not even close. Outside of maybe a year or two, the Camaro has outsold the Firebird generation vs generation.

[NJSPEEDER]

Firebird never outsold the Camaro for any model year or at any trim level.

[DevilDougWS6]

firebirds ARE more rare hahaha!

errrr...less common than camaros

[miketa95]

hmm if their going to get so valuable maybe I can justify buying a second?

[LS1Hawk]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

If GM comes out with a T/A or any version of the Zeta related to the Firebird it will simply prove that they haven't learned anything from the years of fighting themselves for sales. Too similar a vehicle to sell enough units to justify it.

Yes. But one could argue that 1) regardless of which car you buy, a sale of a Camaro or a Firebird is ultimately a sale for GM.That's like saying there should have never been a GTO, Chevelle, 442, GS, etc. because those could have been Camaro sales, and 2) GM has an advantage with offering you a Camaro or Firebird vs. a Mustang or a Camaro or Firebird vs. a Challenger.

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

That makes no sense what so ever...but

Did Pontiac outsell Chevy every generation? Not even close. Outside of maybe a year or two, the Camaro has outsold the Firebird generation vs generation.

Chevy might have outsold Pontiac, but without cars like the the '74 T/A 455 SDs the muscle car era would have died completely.

[BurninrubberGT]

gm had a firebird project, then when the new CAFE standards where put in place the project was canceled.

but 2012 firebird would make sense. gm has said it is keeping pontiac as their niche brand. line up would be g8 (4-door sports car), trans am (coupe), g6 (cheap performance vert), and solstice.....pontiac could once again be the performance division. also if they do come out with the firebird, i think it will look nothing like the camaro

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by LS1Hawk

Yes. But one could argue that 1) regardless of which car you buy, a sale of a Camaro or a Firebird is ultimately a sale for GM.That's like saying there should have never been a GTO, Chevelle, 442, GS, etc. because those could have been Camaro sales, and 2) GM has an advantage with offering you a Camaro or Firebird vs. a Mustang or a Camaro or Firebird vs. a Challenger.

Costs go up because you need two assembly lines and paying to double up on a bunch of equipment, materials, and staff. You also have the half million or more to get another car certified through crash testing and everything else even though it is the same car. Then add more shipping locations since not all Chevy and Pontiac dealers share lots. The margin also gets much thinner once you account for re-engineering a new body and bumper supports and everything, come up with a second marketing plan, and do all of the other stuff related to bringing out a new model.

A-body and F-body were vastly different markets, so I dunno where you are trying to go with that.

GM's "Advantage" against the Mustang with two offerings is a myth. It confuses the market and doesn't have an end benefit for either line. Just look at the sales over the 35 years that the F-body went up against the Mustang, the Mustang was the sales leader moving more units than the Camaro and Firebird combined. Also as a single unit, the Mustang has a much better margin and spent many years right along side the F150 as the focus of Ford's profit driving.

GM's big problem has been overlapping model lines for years. There is a lack of image. If something could be done to create a real dividing line between the models, maybe they can make that work. If the difference is a few standard features and $1500 higher sticker price for the Pontiac model, that is just the same old song and dance and won't move enough units to justify the expense.

Either way, if GM doesn't get serious about advertising, none of it will sell anyway. GM has plenty of competitive products to market, just that the general public never hears about them.

[LS1Hawk]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

Costs go up because you need two assembly lines and paying to double up on a bunch of equipment, materials, and staff. You also have the half million or more to get another car certified through crash testing and everything else even though it is the same car. Then add more shipping locations since not all Chevy and Pontiac dealers share lots. The margin also gets much thinner once you account for re-engineering a new body and bumper supports and everything, come up with a second marketing plan, and do all of the other stuff related to bringing out a new model.

I don't disagree with you. I understand both sides of the argument.

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

A-body and F-body were vastly different markets, so I dunno where you are trying to go with that.

Yes I know. I was referring to all the models as GM muscle cars in general. I don't know the numbers, but I'd argue that GM outsold Ford and Chrysler in the golden age of the muscle car due to their product offering.

I'd also argue that the Firebird would be more beneficial to Pontiac than the Camaro to Chevy. Pontiac needs a white horse to save it and that could very well be a new Firebird. It might have made more sense in that respect to bring the Firebird back rather than the Camaro...even though we know it won't happen at this point.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by LS1Hawk

Chevy might have outsold Pontiac, but without cars like the the '74 T/A 455 SDs the muscle car era would have died completely.

The muscle car era died that year anyway. I love the SD cars and would love to own one, but Pontiac bookended the muscle car era over 10 years. Started it and ended it in my opinion. '75 was probably the worst year ever for the F bodies, performance wise.

As for sales numbers, in the Firebird's best year it was still outsold by the Camaro by over 2 to 1. And the engine that was designed for the Camaro became one of the most (if not the most) popular engines of all time. I would argue that the sales numbers were because (with the exception of the first gen) the Camaro was always the more socially acceptable version of the F-body. Like it or not the Firebird (especially the Trans-AM) was more in-your-face and had love-it-or-hate-it styling.

[CJDZ24_Z28]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

didn't pontiac outsell gm every generation's run?

That is Funny as hell!!! Pontiac never sold more birds than Camaro's!!!!!!

[BurninrubberGT]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

Like it or not the Firebird (especially the Trans-AM) was more in-your-face and had love-it-or-hate-it styling.

very true

the camaro sold more then the firebird for 1 reason only, it was a chevy

dont get me wrong...i love camaro's...just love TA's more

[LS1Hawk]

Originally Posted by BurninrubberGT

the camaro sold more then the firebird for 1 reason only, it was a chevy

The Camaro was also cheaper.