Purolator calls out Fram with their cardboard end caps

[WildBillyT]

Jay,

Thank you for posting the video. For those of you that didn't watch it, it's a pretty good breakdown of filter anatomy and is worth a look.


I do have a few questions for you after viewing:

1.) Why is the regular orange filter not rated for synthetic oil? Due to change intervals?

2.) If cardboard end caps are just fine and have better adhesion to the media due to similar materials and apparently no down side, why does Fram use metal end-caps on their top of the line filter (Extended Guard) and not fiberboard?

3.) Big one for me- What part of the filter anatomy would cause a fluttering in hot idle oil pressure? I ask this because when I used to use Fram filters my car would have slight instability in the gauge at idle, and after switching to another brand it completely went away. Same engine, same milage, same oil- even the same day. Just a different filter. For the record, I don't run a purolator anything either.

Thanks for your input.

[Blacdout96]

WBT, I noticed that too with the Xtra Guard filters. As far as adhesion goes with metal, you can do that without performing any major scuffing. with technology and composites that we have created today, mainly from BASF and 3M, we have created adhesives that are leaps and bound of what they were capable 10-15 years ago. Who here thinks gluing a car together would be strong and better then welding? Aston Martin is big behind building their cars and using a bonding agent instead of welding on their cars, and these adhesives are sometimes stronger the then the metal/composite itself!! It all comes down to cost in the end.
Fram's are marketed for the Box store idiots who are looking to just do an oil change, and as I said before, Fram has built up a lot of followers thanks in part to their advertising.
If Fram was so good, why doesn't any top NASCAR team use them? why Wix? Quality, plain and simple.

The end caps may not deal with oil bypassing, but you have to realize they play an integral part to the structure of the filter. What resists twisting, and deflecting less, a piece of cardboard, or a piece of steel? Enough said. There is a reason why top shops, quality restoration, and engine shops prefer Wix/NAPA over Fram. I can go all day, but I'm waiting for Honeywell's spokesman to respond to WBT and me.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Blacdout96

WBT, I noticed that too with the Xtra Guard filters. As far as adhesion goes with metal, you can do that without performing any major scuffing. with technology and composites that we have created today, mainly from BASF and 3M, we have created adhesives that are leaps and bound of what they were capable 10-15 years ago. Who here thinks gluing a car together would be strong and better then welding? Aston Martin is big behind building their cars and using a bonding agent instead of welding on their cars, and these adhesives are sometimes stronger the then the metal/composite itself!! It all comes down to cost in the end.
Fram's are marketed for the Box store idiots who are looking to just do an oil change, and as I said before, Fram has built up a lot of followers thanks in part to their advertising.
If Fram was so good, why doesn't any top NASCAR team use them? why Wix? Quality, plain and simple.

The end caps may not deal with oil bypassing, but you have to realize they play an integral part to the structure of the filter. What resists twisting, and deflecting less, a piece of cardboard, or a piece of steel? Enough said. There is a reason why top shops, quality restoration, and engine shops prefer Wix/NAPA over Fram. I can go all day, but I'm waiting for Honeywell's spokesman to respond to WBT and me.

See, I understand that majority of the people out there don't need a filter to handle 80psi of oil pressure and stand up to performance abuse. They probably sell way more filters to the guys just looking to save a few bucks by doing their own oil change. Most vehicles don't even have an oil pressure gauge. If you are just trying to maintain your daily beater, does it really matter? Probably not as much as some would lead you to believe. But for performance applications or something that is less "washing machine" and more "street machine" you want something that you can trust and that's well made. Regarding the end caps, I am not an adhesives engineer but if other (smaller) companies can get metal to stick to the filter material, why can't (giant) Honeywell do so for durability?

I don't buy into the "Well, so and so uses this..." either, as there's money and contracts involved all the time. NASCAR only uses Goodyear tires even though a lot of people want to run Hoosiers. Regarding OEM manufacturers, they are looking to save money too- just because it's OEM doesn't mean it's top quality. Far from it in my experience.

[Tru2Chevy]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

2.) If cardboard end caps are just fine and have better adhesion to the media due to similar materials and apparently no down side, why does Fram use metal end-caps on their top of the line filter (Extended Guard) and not fiberboard?

I don't remember if it was mentioned in the video itself, but he did address this in the comments under the video (I was bored and read through some of them).

We use engineered fiber end caps on all of our filters except the XG. It has steel end caps to trap the stainless screen.

- Justin

[LTb1ow]

Fram should put their money where their mouth is, sponser the forum, and threads like this will go poof.

[Blacdout96]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

Fram should put their money where their mouth is, sponser the forum, and threads like this will go poof.

Truthfully though, you are right...

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by motorking

Seems plenty of other companies are making filters this way including GM. Why? Because nothing seals the ends of the media cartridge better. Ever try to glue something to a smooth surface? Metal end caps do not make a filter better, expensive media does. The Bentley filter is ona 345,000 dollar car. Why? Because it works.

You say that like its the be all, end all. You are talking to car guys here, nothing that comes stock on a car is the best. We go out of our way to achieve better with quality parts.

http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthr...ghlight=filter

Have fun buddy.

[FlyingDutchman]

I used a premium purolator filter with pennzoil platinum and was not satisfied. I noticed at hot temperatures the oil pressure did a noticeable amount of fluctuation while on cruise doing around 2k rpm. Previously I only ever used blue Carquest filters (premium Wix filters) and never had a problem with them. Currently I'm running Castrol Syntec with a K&N filter and completely happy with it (as I should with a filter for $13.99!) because the oil pressure is nice and constant (even at hot it manages to have good pressure)

As per the thread, I really do not see a problem with FRAM. I know tons of people running them with high mileage on their vehicles and absolutely no issues. The breakdown video is really informative and I think puts that silly cardboard end-cap nonsense to rest. You should be more worried if they use Elmer's glue to seal the end or the media collapsing rather than whatever they currently use for end-caps. I think if they constantly broke and wrecked engines like people claim, FRAM would not be using them anymore because the sue-happy country would run them out of business!

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

You say that like its the be all, end all. You are talking to car guys here, nothing that comes stock on a car is the best. We go out of our way to achieve better with quality parts.

http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthr...ghlight=filter

Have fun buddy.

That's the problem. Most people on here are "car guys", not engineers. There is nothing wrong with using stock parts, they were made/designed/built to work well.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by 97camaro

I used a premium purolator filter with pennzoil platinum and was not satisfied. I noticed at hot temperatures the oil pressure did a noticeable amount of fluctuation while on cruise doing around 2k rpm. Previously I only ever used blue Carquest filters (premium Wix filters) and never had a problem with them. Currently I'm running Castrol Syntec with a K&N filter and completely happy with it (as I should with a filter for $13.99!) because the oil pressure is nice and constant (even at hot it manages to have good pressure)

As per the thread, I really do not see a problem with FRAM. I know tons of people running them with high mileage on their vehicles and absolutely no issues. The breakdown video is really informative and I think puts that silly cardboard end-cap nonsense to rest. You should be more worried if they use Elmer's glue to seal the end or the media collapsing rather than whatever they currently use for end-caps. I think if they constantly broke and wrecked engines like people claim, FRAM would not be using them anymore because the sue-happy country would run them out of business!




That's the problem. Most people on here are "car guys", not engineers. There is nothing wrong with using stock parts, they were made/designed/built to work well.

It doesn't put it to rest at all. It tells you the one side of why they do it.

[KirkEvil]

Originally Posted by 97camaro

That's the problem. Most people on here are "car guys", not engineers. There is nothing wrong with using stock parts, they were made/designed/built to work well.

Being an engineer does not mean you automatically design/build great things. You could give the best engineer in the world a weak design budget and get a poor product. Stock parts are made for stock applications, under a budget...hopefully designed as best possible for that budget. If everything stock was made/designed/built to work well I guess there wouldnt be any performance gains with aftermarket parts?

[FlyingDutchman]

Originally Posted by KirkEvil

Being an engineer does not mean you automatically design/build great things. You could give the best engineer in the world a weak design budget and get a poor product. Stock parts are made for stock applications, under a budget...hopefully designed as best possible for that budget. If everything stock was made/designed/built to work well I guess there wouldnt be any performance gains with aftermarket parts?

You are right, engineers don't automatically create great things on a low budget (not that it is impossible). However, that wasn't my intended point. My comment was implying that a simple "car guy" would not understand the actual mechanics. They would just assume that since steel is stronger than cardboard it must mean one filter is better than the other. Intuitively it makes sense, but doesn't make it right.

Aftermarket parts are necessary for performance applications. In noway am I saying use them in your 10 second race car. However, just because your car is high performance and requires a high performance filter does not discredit FRAM. Most daily drivers are 100% fine with a FRAM economy filter. They make a quality product form what I am seen and they are not hiding anything. The video clearly addressed the fact that endcaps don't add any structural strength, they just hold the media together (which is already wrapped around a steel cylinder...). And if the only reason you argue that they are garbage is because of the cardboard, then why not trash the felt endcap too?

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by KirkEvil

Being an engineer does not mean you automatically design/build great things. You could give the best engineer in the world a weak design budget and get a poor product. Stock parts are made for stock applications, under a budget...hopefully designed as best possible for that budget. If everything stock was made/designed/built to work well I guess there wouldnt be any performance gains with aftermarket parts?

GM engineers designed our window motors.

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by KirkEvil

Being an engineer does not mean you automatically design/build great things. You could give the best engineer in the world a weak design budget and get a poor product. Stock parts are made for stock applications, under a budget...hopefully designed as best possible for that budget. If everything stock was made/designed/built to work well I guess there wouldnt be any performance gains with aftermarket parts?

While I agree with your points you have made good sir, I will say that stock parts are designed for longevity and passing certain tests, IE safety and emmisions being the big hitters. I can guarentee OE stuff goes through a much more rigorous vibration and expected life span design process and test procedure than say coated pacesetter headers etc.

Now, aftermarket parts sacrifice this in many cases, with removing the cars origanal ability to A) run for an almost indefinite period of time without the need for adjustment, or replacement B) Pass all inspection tests assuming the state actually performed safety and or emissions testing

Most middle of teh line aftermarket parts will not last nearly as long as OE stuff before they start to wear out, or even worse fail. Newer engines, GM V8 wise are coming with more efficient exhaust manifolds and other parts, so the aftermarket for that niche may need to work harder to justify the need to replace stock parts anymore.

[sweetbmxrider]

I like how some random guy defending fram posts a video made by fram to address purolator's stab at fram's inferior craftsmanship and it is somehow holding water.

Just lulz.

[BullittSVT]

Had some crappy fram filter on when I bought my car from the previous owner... did my own oil change with a purolator premium.. oil pressure shot up, Hell just the.amount of filter media puts fram to shame let alone everything else in the product

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

I like how some random guy defending fram posts a video made by fram to address purolator's stab at fram's inferior craftsmanship and it is somehow holding water.

Just lulz.

does not appear to be a random guy

Originally Posted by motorking

Jay.Buckley@Framgrp.com

[KirkEvil]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

While I agree with your points you have made good sir, I will say that stock parts are designed for longevity and passing certain tests, IE safety and emmisions being the big hitters. I can guarentee OE stuff goes through a much more rigorous vibration and expected life span design process and test procedure than say coated pacesetter headers etc.

Now, aftermarket parts sacrifice this in many cases, with removing the cars origanal ability to A) run for an almost indefinite period of time without the need for adjustment, or replacement B) Pass all inspection tests assuming the state actually performed safety and or emissions testing

Most middle of teh line aftermarket parts will not last nearly as long as OE stuff before they start to wear out, or even worse fail. Newer engines, GM V8 wise are coming with more efficient exhaust manifolds and other parts, so the aftermarket for that niche may need to work harder to justify the need to replace stock parts anymore.

framboi

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by KirkEvil

framboi

Just merely trying to spark a knowledgable conversation old chap.

If only we could get a "car guy" who was also an engineer to add in here.

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

does not appear to be a random guy

Someone on the internet posted an email address, cmon meow! Even if he does work for fram, the point still stands. Its a fram video endorsing their product. Like we've never seen that before with regards to anything at all, ever.

[KirkEvil]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

Just merely trying to spark a knowledgable conversation old chap.

If only we could get a "car guy" who was also an engineer to add in here.

If you would have graduated with even a BS in the past 6 years of school, you could have filled the spot.

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

While I agree with your points you have made good sir, I will say that stock parts are designed for longevity and passing certain tests, IE safety and emmisions being the big hitters. I can guarentee OE stuff goes through a much more rigorous vibration and expected life span design process and test procedure than say coated pacesetter headers etc.

Now, aftermarket parts sacrifice this in many cases, with removing the cars origanal ability to A) run for an almost indefinite period of time without the need for adjustment, or replacement B) Pass all inspection tests assuming the state actually performed safety and or emissions testing

Most middle of teh line aftermarket parts will not last nearly as long as OE stuff before they start to wear out, or even worse fail. Newer engines, GM V8 wise are coming with more efficient exhaust manifolds and other parts, so the aftermarket for that niche may need to work harder to justify the need to replace stock parts anymore.

Some good points here but with all of the competition in the line of product at topic, you can easily distinguish between the cheap, the affordable, and the top of the line. All will have pros and cons associated with them as we all know. Fram uses inferior materials to put out a filter at an affordable price in hopes that they reach a larger consumer base that is simply price hunting. Excessive advertisement also helps sell their brand, but doesn't help produce a better product. Same goes for say car insurance. Geico, progressive, etc advertise like crazy and give you lower rates but nickle and dime body shops to use the bottom of the line components when repairing. NJ Manufacturers and others pay for the oem components but you never see them advertising????

That's my take.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

Someone on the internet posted an email address, cmon meow! Even if he does work for fram, the point still stands. Its a fram video endorsing their product. Like we've never seen that before with regards to anything at all, ever.

[sweetbmxrider]

Dis guy....

[NastyEllEssWon]

i used a fram high mileaged filter one time, and the goo thats at the bottom and supposed to melt slowly over time melted and all at once a glob of crap got stuck and blew up my motor. i'll never use a fram product again after that.

[sweetbmxrider]

You sir, are my idol.