GM Exec Questions

[The_Bishop]

Will there be a diesel option for the new Colorado/Canyon platform? Will there be more diesel powertrains in general, across all the vehicle lines?

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by The_Bishop

Will there be a diesel option for the new Colorado/Canyon platform? Will there be more diesel powertrains in general, across all the vehicle lines?

Already offered in other countries, americans dont like diesel.

[1320B4U]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

http://www.ev1.org/#True

Great find.. i read over it quickly but will dive into it deeper tonight! Its all about public perception though is my main argument. If the oil companies killed the ev1 or if the volt's unsuccessful release was due to the marketing aspect of it then the car was never was truely bad to begin with, however its the publics perception that gm couldn't get a vehicle successfully launched and into mass production on the long haul. Possible suitors to this new vehicle may just see it as another failed gm attempt and this could limit them to other new gm vehicles entirely. Perception is everything in this world.


Another aspect of the volt is its price. You get a lot of technology for the money but when you pair it up to its competitor the prius, the price is quite a bit higher, even w/the government incentives. If i was to by a hybrid of sorts, i expect it to do 1 thing, get me to my job and back. Its not for leisurely or spirited drives, if your a car guy like us. It can't tow, haul, is real great in the snow nor fun to drive, its a point a to b commuter car...so i wouldn't want to shell out more than 20-22k for the car. 40k for a volt minus incentives still make it top out at over 30k new...the price of a new camaro, ats etc. Cost is still too high imo for a small car...thats why i'd go cruze eco and bank that extra money.

[The_Bishop]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

Already offered in other countries, americans dont like diesel.

I am aware of these things, and I disagree on american's not liking diesel. There are a *bunch* of these trucks running around this area, in both fleet use and privately driven. The diesel option would go over big with the fleet and farm crowds, and it's no extra work as it's already all scienced out. I'd trade to one in a heartbeat. A lower cost small diesel truck would sell like gangbusters, I think. I'd like a diesel but I'm not willing to spend $50k on a 2500 diesel full size.

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by The_Bishop

I am aware of these things, and I disagree on american's not liking diesel. There are a *bunch* of these trucks running around this area, in both fleet use and privately driven. The diesel option would go over big with the fleet and farm crowds, and it's no extra work as it's already all scienced out. I'd trade to one in a heartbeat. A lower cost small diesel truck would sell like gangbusters, I think. I'd like a diesel but I'm not willing to spend $50k on a 2500 diesel full size.

Well then no diesel for you.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by The_Bishop

I am aware of these things, and I disagree on american's not liking diesel. There are a *bunch* of these trucks running around this area, in both fleet use and privately driven. The diesel option would go over big with the fleet and farm crowds, and it's no extra work as it's already all scienced out. I'd trade to one in a heartbeat. A lower cost small diesel truck would sell like gangbusters, I think. I'd like a diesel but I'm not willing to spend $50k on a 2500 diesel full size.

Considering your geographic location, I'd say you are a little biased.

[Paul Huryk]

Is there any reason why every recent generation of cars weighs 300 to 500lbs more than the one before - and no, safety is not a legitimate reason. If Nissan can drop 100lbs going from the 350Z to 370Z, so can the F-Bodies...

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by Paul Huryk

Is there any reason why every recent generation of cars weighs 300 to 500lbs more than the one before - and no, safety is not a legitimate reason. If Nissan can drop 100lbs going from the 350Z to 370Z, so can the F-Bodies...

Sports cars are one thing, but GM has had a huge problem with weight. Bob Lutz was asked about it years ago, and he said he wanted the cars to have extra weight in things like the doors and other panels so they felt solid.

There will be quite the sizable drop in weight for the 6th gen. 5th gen is 250lbs heavier than a 4th gen, but has all metal body panels, 20 inch wheels, sound deadening, IRS, more air bags, heavier seats, and stiffer frame.

And 300-500lbs is a bit drastic. I'd say that, on average, cars weight within 100lbs of the previous generation.

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by 1320B4U

Great find.. i read over it quickly but will dive into it deeper tonight! Its all about public perception though is my main argument. If the oil companies killed the ev1 or if the volt's unsuccessful release was due to the marketing aspect of it then the car was never was truely bad to begin with, however its the publics perception that gm couldn't get a vehicle successfully launched and into mass production on the long haul. Possible suitors to this new vehicle may just see it as another failed gm attempt and this could limit them to other new gm vehicles entirely. Perception is everything in this world.

Yeah my dentist happened to mention it to me Tuesday and seeing you mention it was a little.......

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by The_Bishop

Will there be a diesel option for the new Colorado/Canyon platform? Will there be more diesel powertrains in general, across all the vehicle lines?

We asked this, but to a Vehicle Engineer. It seems that a lot is riding on the Cruze diesel. Internally, GM North America thinks diesel sucks and they don't want any of that...unless it makes money.
Now, many people instantly go, "BUT LOOK AT VW! JETTA IS LIKE 25% DIESEL!!"
Well...the wagon is actually 40% diesel, but the sedan is less than 10%. And guess which body style the Cruze is available here in the US? So, prepare for a self-inflicted disaster. The old "it won't sell, just look at our poorly thought out attempt of putting together a car in the segment" trick.

Originally Posted by 1320B4U

Great find.. i read over it quickly but will dive into it deeper tonight! Its all about public perception though is my main argument. If the oil companies killed the ev1 or if the volt's unsuccessful release was due to the marketing aspect of it then the car was never was truely bad to begin with, however its the publics perception that gm couldn't get a vehicle successfully launched and into mass production on the long haul. Possible suitors to this new vehicle may just see it as another failed gm attempt and this could limit them to other new gm vehicles entirely. Perception is everything in this world.

EV1 was expensive to produce and was only built to keep Cali happy. There were some true-believers that were put together to make the car, but it failed. Lease rates were high, original lead-acid batteries had no range, all sorts of failure.

Now, Volt is different in that Lutz supported the program 100%. Not because he believes in saving the polar bears or is the head of greenpeace. No, he did it because he wanted to gain the technological edge over everyone else by making a vehicle that doesn't exist. Something that would, overnight, render the Prius technologically inferior.

And it did.

Another aspect of the volt is its price. You get a lot of technology for the money but when you pair it up to its competitor the prius, the price is quite a bit higher, even w/the government incentives. If i was to by a hybrid of sorts, i expect it to do 1 thing, get me to my job and back. Its not for leisurely or spirited drives, if your a car guy like us. It can't tow, haul, is real great in the snow nor fun to drive, its a point a to b commuter car...so i wouldn't want to shell out more than 20-22k for the car. 40k for a volt minus incentives still make it top out at over 30k new...the price of a new camaro, ats etc. Cost is still too high imo for a small car...thats why i'd go cruze eco and bank that extra money.

You could say that about every single hybrid/electric vehicle, but you can snag a Volt lease for $250 a month now a days, so it's really not that expensive to own one, considering that if your commute is less than 35 miles every day, you don't have to spend money on a gas which can save you $130 bucks a month.

Cost is high, but we are looking at the first generation of this technology. As time goes on, battery tech improves and becomes cheaper, cars like this will be much more affordable.

[Blackbirdws6]

Does anyone state the average electric cost to charge the car versus purchasing fuel? I assume the economics are in favor of electric charging but saying blindly that you will save $XX in fuel and not factoring in the electric charging cost is a bit misleading.

[sweetbmxrider]

Al, read that ev1 website I linked to.

BLS, solar bro! Its all freeeeeeeee!!!

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

Al, read that ev1 website I linked to.

BLS, solar bro! Its all freeeeeeeee!!!

Wrong, soon the feds will lower the gas taxes and just assign a per mile traveled on what road fee to recoup the lost gas taxes from pure electric cars.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Blackbirdws6

Does anyone state the average electric cost to charge the car versus purchasing fuel? I assume the economics are in favor of electric charging but saying blindly that you will save $XX in fuel and not factoring in the electric charging cost is a bit misleading.

You also need to adjust for battery replacement and increased repair costs, when they do come up.

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

Wrong, soon the feds will lower the gas taxes and just assign a per mile traveled on what road fee to recoup the lost gas taxes from pure electric cars.

Well you can't tax what doesn't exist so yeah, soon there won't be a gas tax

[Paul Huryk]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Sports cars are one thing, but GM has had a huge problem with weight. Bob Lutz was asked about it years ago, and he said he wanted the cars to have extra weight in things like the doors and other panels so they felt solid.

There will be quite the sizable drop in weight for the 6th gen. 5th gen is 250lbs heavier than a 4th gen, but has all metal body panels, 20 inch wheels, sound deadening, IRS, more air bags, heavier seats, and stiffer frame.

And 300-500lbs is a bit drastic. I'd say that, on average, cars weight within 100lbs of the previous generation.

I understand your point. If they wanted the cars to feel more solid, they could engineer the parts so they were actually solid - not just adding weight, that is the cheap and wrong way to do that.

But an LS1 4th gen weighs 100lbs more than a 3rd gen, even with a 150lb weight penalty for an all iron engine and all metal body panels - so its more like 250lbs for those. I know these cars are now considered ancient, but my point is that GM has been inflating curb weights for some time. And these 2 generations are about the same size dimensionally.

I just don't understand how GM could put out a 4000lb 5th generation car and be satisfied when it requires more power to be as fast as lighter cars and can't deliver the mileage. The car needs the 426hp LS3 to keep up with the 350hp 4th gens, which is going backwards as far as performance is concerned. That same motor in the much lighter Corvette runs low 12's stock and gets better mileage (as an example).

If I was running things at GM, the first thing on my list would be to start dropping weight in each successive car generation as a whole - that shows progress... Any monkey can add weight and charge more.

[sweetbmxrider]

Can we get an update to our GMbot?

[1320B4U]

GM considered all our responses and are re-releasing the Aztec as an olivebranch for resolution.

[BigAls87Z28]

You guys had questions unanswered?

[WiMiMc]

Any more information on Code-130R and TRU 140 S?

Any chance of the 140 S being RWD or AWD?

would the 130R have a turbo 6 cylinder or something fun?

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by WiMiMc

Any more information on Code-130R and TRU 140 S?

Any chance of the 140 S being RWD or AWD?

would the 130R have a turbo 6 cylinder or something fun?

Ugh, with the future product questions...

There is an engineering program going on right now that would take the Alpha platform, take a lot of the cost out of it, package-protect it with turbo 3/4cyl engines, and it will be called "Beta". This could spawn a 130R-like car for Chevrolet, something to put against the Toyota/Subaru/Scion GT86/BRZ/FRS. Nissan is also looking at a similar platform.

When will it come? At best, 2018.

[maroman88]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

When will it come? At best, 2018.

and there's the typical problem, all those other cars are out now, 5 years is a loooong time! think retro styiling of the camaro vs mustang, pt cruiser vs hhr. the only thing gm keeps on pace with is its trucks

[1320B4U]

^ 100% correct....we wait until the market is saturated to make a move.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by maroman88

and there's the typical problem, all those other cars are out now, 5 years is a loooong time! think retro styiling of the camaro vs mustang, pt cruiser vs hhr. the only thing gm keeps on pace with is its trucks

Originally Posted by 1320B4U

^ 100% correct....we wait until the market is saturated to make a move.

Eh, yes and no.

It's not that GM is late to the game, it's that GM chases trends too much instead of doing their own thing. Very rarely do they innovate, and when they do, they get a lot of **** for it.

Camaro and Mustang is always a thing. The retro-ness of the Camaro was dictated by you, the enthusiast, as that is what you demanded from GM, so you can't blame them for that. You DEMANDED the Camaro be brought back, you DEMANDED it look like an old one, just like the Mustang did, and they did it.

HHR was brought to and designed by the same two guys that did it at Chrysler. But GM chased a trend (tall, 5 seat, high design wagon), and wrapped it in a familiar retro body.

This is another case of GM chasing a trend. You didn't see Ford chase Chrysler into the PT market. You didn't see Toyota make a V8 powered Celica to chase after Mustang.

But in both cases, the Camaro and HHR beat out their respective counterparts in every single quantitative and qualitative area. HHR had more room, looked arguably better, offered better, more powerful powertrains, a better performance package, and sold more than the PT did. Same with Camaro.

GM sees the cult-like following of the new 86 car and they want a piece of that. So a bunch of engineers started putting computer models together and said, "yeah, we could probably build a car like that". The public says, "BUILD IT!!" and then it takes 2-3 years to make a car.

Chasing trends is what GM does. They have done it over, and over, and over, and over again. And those cars have become some of GM's most desired vehicles of all time.

[LTb1ow]

Hey Al, did the diesel cruze get the ax for North America?

If I wanted to get a small diesel car from GM is this possible in the next few years?