vehicle prep and upgrades PRIOR to next years 500hp sbc with N20 engine swap

[B4C]

One of my co-workers just purchased a blueprint 427 long block and it is bad ass. Hes running the fast ez efi with it too. Think he paid $8000 for the long block. Why the nitrous? Why not just stay n/a?

[IROCZman15]

Originally Posted by B4C

One of my co-workers just purchased a blueprint 427 long block and it is bad ass. Hes running the fast ez efi with it too. Think he paid $8000 for the long block. Why the nitrous? Why not just stay n/a?

nice!! I looked (online) at a bunch of info on the FAST EZ-EFI stuff too. that was my second option behind the sniper, with then the FiTech stuff as a 3rd place option. what kinda car does he have it in? i'm guessing its making about 550 when all assembled ?

I'm going to have the nitrous as a bonus for track use. I already have a 100-150 shot on the car now so the car is wired, plumbed, and everything for nitrous. I don't think it would make much sense for me to remove it? All i'll have to do is get some bigger jets, get a solenoid mounting plate/bracket for the sniper, and get an actual intake spray plate to sit below the sniper unit on the intake. If the current 340 lph pump and -8 feed line aren't capable of a 200-250 shot, then i'll just run a smaller shot and have fun with that. ... if ever needed I could add a small dedicated tank/pump/lines for the nitrous use, but that's PROBABLY ONLY if I am really chasing down a goal e.t. at the track. possibly. but as for now, since the car is setup for nitrous, my thought is that it make sense to keep it and run it occasionally with the new engine. with the current slug motor, I do use it a lot because the engine is weak; next engine wont be!


anyone else? I know I type a lot and its daunting to read, but i try to put as much info out there so people have a full-circle idea of my thoughts/gameplan

comments? criticisms? thoughts? major red flags?

-cheaper places to have the 6 point roll bar done? S&W racecars wants about $3,200 for a bar with swing-outs in chrome-moly tube
-ideas for radiator and water pump?
-thoughts on headers and exhaust?
-torque converter upgrade from the edge racing 2,800 rpm?

[B4C]

He put it in his 85 z28. The torque is crazy. I looked at efi setups for my wifes 86 trans am and the Holley sniper was my first choice as well. She also wanted to swap the 700r for a t56. Once I priced it all out it made more sense to just LS swap it.

[LTb1ow]

I have had good success with FTI, and Circle D converters.

[IROCZman15]

I am about 2 months away from ordering the engine. I have the full amount of $ saved and ready in my bank account. I also have the $ saved for the 6 point roll-bar install at S&W racecars. I still need to earn a few thousand dollars more to save for what I have been calling "the extras", which include a new torque converter, radiator, battery relocation box, wiring, and on/off switch, power steering box rebuild, engine bay makeover and paint, and maybe a set of drag slicks to mount onto my 16" iroc wheels. I am thinking somewhere about $3,500 for that stuff.


in the next few weeks I might start asking for input on what questions I should make sure I mention to the engine building company. cam specs, gap rings for a 200-250 wet shot, engine weight, stuff like that. I have never been down this road before, and since I am spending some big $ here, I want to make sure I ask all the right questions to people that are knowledgeable and then i can have a near perfect gameplan.

[Blackbirdws6]

My big recommendation is to spend the extra money to have the engine run on a dyno as close to the configuration as you plan to run it in the car. This will ensure you get it broken in properly and prove the combination is doing what is intended. It will give you some piece of mind to know the engine is sound so if you have issues when installed in the car, it's likely something on your end isn't right.

When selecting the final engine spec, think far down the road how you will plan to use the engine. Do you want something to provide max power or sacrifice a little top end to gain more mid range. Ask for the complete build sheet including part numbers should you need to replace anything down the road. Ask what plugs should be run for different conditions or if not wanting to make it complicated, ask what plug and gap should be used to handle both NA and nitrous.

Ask if after the engine is broken in, do you need to check over head bolt/stud torque, etc or not needed.

Ask what oil they recommend for break in and after break in use.

[LTb1ow]

Don't compromise the motor for the 10-20% time you are going to be racing it, make sure it will always be ready to go for DD duty.

[wretched73]

Who is going to be building the engine for you?

[IROCZman15]

Awesome. Thanks fellas!! I had thought of a few of those things,
But you brought up a few things I hadn’t thought about. Thank you

When I sent a few emails last year they assured me that it would be a perfect street motor that after some initial tuning/self learning time.. would be very reliable on the street and able to be hammered on at the track as well. I totally agree that it should be a street engine first and foremost, like you said, not compromising street driveability to gain a few more top end horsepower. I will ask them for the full detailed parts list, numbers, plugs, oil, recommendations for water pump, and torque specs. I probably won’t even hook up the nitrous for a few months of so since it will be a big jump up to the +500 horsepower/torque ball game. I want to make sure the car and powertrain is happy before drilling a 200 shot and trying to run a low number. I still want to autocross this car too which is why I didn’t want turbo or blower configuration. Mid range horsepower would be optimal. Street car.

Nyes performance engines will be building the engine . Top to bottom. I spend a lot of time over the past few years reading and reaching out to people who have their engines and I can only find one bad review on them (by some dumb dirt track racer bozo) on yellowbullt.com and when he complained, the yellowbullet people ate him alive and had nothing but good things to say about nyes engines. I am NOT using the eagle crank and rods but instead paying the extra $500 for the Callie’s crank and rods. I will also pay the extra $100 for the arp 2000 level bolts.

http://nyesautomotive.net/site/mobil..._EFI.html#2619


I ha e more correspondence but here are two of Their shorter emails to me:
“Hello Dave
I think the 406 would be a great combo for your car with the Holley Sniper system, we can get the cam correct for cruising and racing, as for the wet nitrous it will work but you will need a seperate fuel pressure regulator for the nitrous system. The fuel pump in the tank is a great idea and makes for a clean install. Let me know what your zip code is and i will get you a total price with freight.
Thank you
Pat”

And

“Hello Dave
We use the Sniper system and it works well on this engine, we would open up the ring gap a bit for the 150-200 shot and should not need to do anything else different, we do use ARP head bolts on this engine. As for savings for lack of a fuel pump we can deduct $200.00 if we don't send a pump.

Thank you, if you have any other questions please let me know
Pat”




So


I plan on keeping my current exhaust setup for a bit while I get the car sorted out. It is DynoDon’s 1 3/4Inch mid length headers to a 3” holley cat back, and a 3” electric cutout with aero chamber muffler. After talking to a bunch of drag racers in the pits at events and knowledgeable people online, it’s probably the very lowest I should have with the engine, but will work. It would be about $2000 or more for a set of 2” headers and a 4” magnaflow exhaust with muffler. I won’t have that in the budget. My Dyno dons headers should bolt right up to the dart pro1 heads.

I’ll have to figure out bracketed for the trans Tv cable, reroute the -8 and -6 fuel
Lines, redo all the front accessories and brackets, too. My mini starter and alternator should work just fine. Air filter and assembly will also have to be figured out. Maybe a drop-base style ? Remember I’ll gain about 3/4” in engine height when that nitrous plate does go on.

[LTb1ow]

I know its not apples to apples, but I trap 139 area with a 3 inch downpipe to a cutout mid car.

Run it with what you have ad it picks up a ton with cutout open, maybe look into replacing parts but don't go replacing stuff that may work.

[sweetbmxrider]

I would think a whipple or whatever flavor you like would be awesome for auto x?

[IROCZman15]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

I know its not apples to apples, but I trap 139 area with a 3 inch downpipe to a cutout mid car.

Run it with what you have ad it picks up a ton with cutout open, maybe look into replacing parts but don't go replacing stuff that may work.

yup, thanks Matt. that's the plan for at least the 2020 season. Run it with the exhaust as it is. good to hear you are doing good with your 3" setup and the car runs a stout speed and quarter mile. many other racers I've chatted with agree that I shouldn't be bottle-necking the engine too much, especially N/A...and leaving the electric cutout open too.


adam. I had briefly considered that. it would change the whole configuration of the engine (no holley sniper) and I would probably have to run an intercooler. was hoping to avoid excess intake pipes winding all over the engine bay (for cosmetics and work access). also, since the ultimate hp/tq goal for the car was low-mid 700's, that blower/engine setup would be always setup/tuned for that amount of power on the street. dare I say it,...but that might be too much for me on the street with this car. with the nitrous setup, I can run about 500+ hp on the street n/a and then grab the other 200 hp at the track when I turn on the bottle. but a whipple style blower would be way more of a reality compared to a centrifugal blower in my list of possible choices. thanks

I chatted with some of our crew yesterday at atco too and also had a short chat with the guys at the Holley booth about the sniper unit. either the sniper (600 hp) or super sniper(650 hp) will be what I wind up getting. I discussed computer tuning stuff with polar bear yesterday too and most of that stuff is currently wayyyy over my head. I'd like to learn it for sure, but I'll start from the beginning with the simple had-held display/programmer that comes with the sniper. eventually, possibly I can learn enough to step up to a lap-top.

[Blackbirdws6]

Originally Posted by IROCZman15

yup, thanks Matt. that's the plan for at least the 2020 season. Run it with the exhaust as it is. good to hear you are doing good with your 3" setup and the car runs a stout speed and quarter mile. many other racers I've chatted with agree that I shouldn't be bottle-necking the engine too much, especially N/A...and leaving the electric cutout open too.


adam. I had briefly considered that. it would change the whole configuration of the engine (no holley sniper) and I would probably have to run an intercooler. was hoping to avoid excess intake pipes winding all over the engine bay (for cosmetics and work access). also, since the ultimate hp/tq goal for the car was low-mid 700's, that blower/engine setup would be always setup/tuned for that amount of power on the street. dare I say it,...but that might be too much for me on the street with this car. with the nitrous setup, I can run about 500+ hp on the street n/a and then grab the other 200 hp at the track when I turn on the bottle. but a whipple style blower would be way more of a reality compared to a centrifugal blower in my list of possible choices. thanks

I chatted with some of our crew yesterday at atco too and also had a short chat with the guys at the Holley booth about the sniper unit. either the sniper (600 hp) or super sniper(650 hp) will be what I wind up getting. I discussed computer tuning stuff with polar bear yesterday too and most of that stuff is currently wayyyy over my head. I'd like to learn it for sure, but I'll start from the beginning with the simple had-held display/programmer that comes with the sniper. eventually, possibly I can learn enough to step up to a lap-top.

Not swaying you towards a blower but a PD one (like a whipple) would typically have a watercooled system and not a traditional intercooler (a to a).

[BonzoHansen]

Go big or go home

or here

or here.

[IROCZman15]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

Go big or go home

or here

or here.

a Nelson engine with mirror image turbos would cost more than every vehicle I own combined !!

[IROCZman15]

I have been in contact with S&W racecars over the past few months and we were initially shooting to have me drop the car off mid November, but they have two builds over there that have had customers add-on to the project so the timeline has shifted and I should be dropping the car off in about 3-4 weeks. I am hoping that mayyyybe around thanksgiving actually since I'll be out in PA just 8 mins away from the shop at my in-laws house for Thanksgiving. fingers crossed
- I am still undecided between a mild-steel vs a chrome-moly bar setup.?? Thoughts?

I did decide that I wanted to NOT have the two diagonal bars going from the main hoop and over to the driveshaft hump. I wont be seating passengers in the back, but i will want the space accessible for gear/stuff. Since I will be getting door-bar swingouts which will also be removable... I am hoping to have them weld in a lower (yet non-NHRA legal), support bar for chassis stiffness. It will be permanent and mounted to the same plate that the front of the swingout bar will mount. chassis stiffness when the upper bar is removed is the goal here.

I made a sketch of all of this and it is attached below. I also will be getting the 5 point harnesses with the quick disconnect cam-lock style lock. I want the rear support bars to be bent so I can maximize trunk space and possibly put some sort of sound system on top of the trunk hump between the bars.



Since the roll bar project is delayed, I might go ahead an order the engine now. I was going to wait and do this early December but maybe I'll do it now. Nyes racing engines told me they get really busy starting early January, so November December is the best time to order it and have it built. I called and spoke to them a few weeks ago for about 25 mins. The engine (link above in other posts) will make 525+ streetable horsepower and 500+ tq. It makes power down low and mid range. This will work well with my 1 3/4" mid length headers since it will not be an all-out righ revving top end horsepower engine setup. The rings will be opened up for a 200-250 shot of nitrous as well.
I will be sent the complete build sheet with parts numbers, specs, and info. Engine comes dyno tested and with dyno sheet. 20-50 or 15-40 valvoline VR1 recomended. there should be no issues with blowby or cranckase pressures due to opening up rings for nitrous use. does not use a pcv system, just drop in breathers, Dart Pro1 heads on a Dart SHP block; the Dart specs can be found online....or if i find time i'll post them here.

-any final thoughts from the group before I order this??
when I call them this friday, I am going to ask about:
will I need a vaccum pump for brake system?
-does SHP block require a special type of ol pump or will basic SBC long/short just bolt right up?
-compression ratio?
-specific engine mounts for dart shp block or traditional sbc?
-throttle cable bracketry and TV cable advice?
-can I use evans waterless coolant in this all new engine and all new radiator/hose/pump setup?
-anything else??


so, any last advice on roll bar? might be leaning to mild steel bar. not sure if chrome moly is actually much weight savings... when I did the research its all about wall thickness and less material. CM is more brittle and needs to be tig welded. mild steel has more "bend" than break to it. more expensive for a few pounds of weight savings. and on a street car that will do moderate racing, I might go with mild-steel.?

[TaKid455]

will I need a vaccum pump for brake system? - This is relative to cam. Engine builder will answer this. With today's advancements and your power level, I'd push to run it without. Less crap. I would look into an external vacuum scavenger/ remote breather system instead.

-does SHP block require a special type of ol pump or will basic SBC long/short just bolt right up? - Engine builder question.

-compression ratio? - you & engine builder. Don't polute that area. Stay below 11:1 - 10.5:1 for pump gas w/ Alum heads. This is also relative to cam as you can position the lobes to increase or decrease cyl pressure. I've made good power on 8.5-9:1 engines with proper cams. Watch the DCR. This is more critical.

-specific engine mounts for dart shp block or traditional sbc?
-throttle cable bracketry and TV cable advice? - keep it simple. I like to run factory stuff if its clean and works.

-can I use evans waterless coolant in this all new engine and all new radiator/hose/pump setup? - yes

-anything else?? - needs boost


so, any last advice on roll bar? might be leaning to mild steel bar. not sure if chrome moly - Don't crash

[Blackbirdws6]

My $0.02

- any final thoughts from the group before I order this?? Any chance to spend a little extra money to get the engine broken in on a dyno to confirm all is well before it goes into the car? I'd highly recommend this and it can help avoid finger pointing down the road. It also reduces your risk in breaking the engine in properly. New build, new things, short run cycles, iffy tuning, etc.

- will I need a vaccum pump for brake system? As mentioned, I would avoid this and comes down to cam selection. It doesn't sound like you are planning to go wild so you should be OK but def double check with the builder.

-does SHP block require a special type of ol pump or will basic SBC long/short just bolt right up? No clue, builder should know also as mentioned.

-compression ratio? Running 93 pump is the goal I assume so I'd run as much compression as you can with some safety buffer. I assume their 525 crank HP states the static CR and this should be easily doable. My engine (383 SBC basically, is 9.5:1 SCR and did 510+crank hp with a moderate boost cam) hopefully can put things into perspective.

-specific engine mounts for dart shp block or traditional sbc? Outside my wheelhouse, builder should know.

-throttle cable bracketry and TV cable advice?Keep it simple, if stock is bad then replace but if that will work, go with that.

-can I use evans waterless coolant in this all new engine and all new radiator/hose/pump setup? Yes

-anything else?? Remind me if you are going FI or if this will be a carb setup. I ask because there are some really interesting FI setups that may provide you with better engine control, safety mechanisms built in (especially on nitrous), etc.

As for the bar, I went mild steel as the weight savings wasn't a major priority (maybe it should have been haha) and the welders I knew at the time did not TIG.

[LTb1ow]

I may be out of my wheelhouse on this as well, but using such heavy oil weight to me seems like a sloppy engine build. (Now granted that could be normal for heavy N20 huffers) But I would inquire about that.

[wretched73]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

I may be out of my wheelhouse on this as well, but using such heavy oil weight to me seems like a sloppy engine build. (Now granted that could be normal for heavy N20 huffers) But I would inquire about that.

Maybe the engine has a flat tappet cam and needs oil with the extra ZDDP the flat tappet requires?

IDK of any light weight oils with extra ZDDP but I could be wrong

[BonzoHansen]

flat tappet cam? no no no no no no. its not 1989.

Amsoil makes 10/30 in their z-rod line. But with a roller cam it isn't really needed.

I have roughly 14.5" at idle and have no power brake issues.


Edit: above link is beat, i think it is this one. That says roller lifters.
http://nyesautomotive.net/406_525hp_EFI.html
"Erson hydraulic roller cam and lifters"
"This engine is fully machined, balanced, assembled, and dyno tested."

If the builder says 40 or 50 weight, he should know, he set the bearing clearances.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by wretched73

Maybe the engine has a flat tappet cam and needs oil with the extra ZDDP the flat tappet requires?

IDK of any light weight oils with extra ZDDP but I could be wrong

VR1 10w30 has enough. Not the cheapest but readily available.

I'm with Matt, I'd ask why 20w50 is spec'd.

[IROCZman15]

thanks for the replies fellas, much appreciated. I'll try to answer as much as I can here.

as for the oil, when I asked him which oil, he made mention of Zinc several times when telling me that the VR1 was his trusted suggestion. I will recheck with him about why. I am aware that AMSOIL also makes a zinc heavy oil (z-rod)so I'll see what his thoughts on that are as well.

I am glad to hear that I probably wont need a vac pump for the brakes. would love to avoid having to do all that. I would also prefer to use stock style/configured: water pump, motor mounts (rubber), and accessory drive configured components.

I have TPI currently so my TV able might work but not sure about my accelerator cable. also the throttle bracket will have to mount to the efi setup. I am not going with a carb because I am not a carb tuner. I am also not going with a complicated direct port injection, or any complicated ecu needing a laptop. It will get the Holley sniper unit that allows some tuning and datalogging. it has built in nitrous controller, fan contrllers, self contained ecu, small touchscreen display for dashboard, and is self learning. I would like to learn to tune eventually, but Im not jumping into it now. I am not smart enough and do NOT want to deal with self-caused problems and get pissed off if it goes awry. I want it to just work... dont care if I can gain a bit more power with a different ecu, not worth my sanity.

I will check with them about the compression ratios. I know he said it is street friendly and strip friendly so I am assuming it will be in that 10:5 range.

http://www.nyesautomotive.net/406_525hp_EFI.html
but with the upgraded Callies crank and rods, not the eagle rods


I think mild steel roll bar is going to be the winner come install time. Makes more sense to me. Thanks for the advice too

will probably order this bullet next week.

[sweetbmxrider]

When would you plan on having the door bars out but need the bracing there via the additional bars? Do you have sfc's already? Because that would seem redundant. I don't like the look of the rear bars either, I would question if it meets NHRA rules as well and if they would do their job when you need them most.

[IROCZman15]

Thanks for the input Adam. I’ll gladly take any and all input and opinions and think them over. As for the roll bar setup, my sketch is merely my ideas based off of some roll bars and roll cages I’ve seen in 3rd/4the gens that are dealing with power levels I hope to be at. I do have subframe connectors, I have the S&W subframe kit that has the main bars, a cross member and some floor bolt through plates with an outer bar to the drivers side rocker area too. I plan to keep the upper (NHRA legal) bars/swing-outs removed pretty often. I do plan to drive this car pretty aggressively on the street, at autocross, and of course at the strip. The way the S&W main sfc bars are, I’d say they are more inner compared to the bmr style that run along the rockers. If Im going to be throwing +500 tq n/a and perhaps nitrous at it, I would want to have a lower door bar there so I don’t expand the paint crack at the top of my windows/roofline to grow in the event that I get a little heavy on the throttle on the street. A goal of mine is to pull a wheelie on the street and in my driveway, so those lower bars would hopefully be good for the chassis flex. It’s a slightly crazy goal but With slicks and a torque-y motor... I can dream. When I get back over to S&W and drop the car off, I’ll chat about the roll bar design and they will have the finals say when it comes to safety and NHRA/SFI tech

Side note, I went to the concrete plant by my house today and was upset to learn how much weight I added to the car with the 12 bolt rear, beefier driveshaft, full sound system in, and a completely full gas tank but no driver..... 3,580. (+/- 20 pounds on their scale). Wow. I know I’ll be adding weight with the roll bad but I hope the engine project and engine bay cleanup can help me shave some down.
- put 71 miles on it today and did a few nitrous rips to the point where now I have no more bottle pressure to do any more in 2019.