E-85 and ethanol fuel alternative *rant*

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by PBodyGT87

Gas prices would only drop for maybe about our lifetime if we use our own oil. That crude oil we get the gas form takes years and years and YEARS to produce naturally, so we'd be use it all up from our own country and then be shot out of luck because it'd take another set of hundreds of years to get the oil supply back. We really don't have that much oil here, even if we start drilling. Again, no one is FORCING you to use e85, you may continue to use your gas. And I'm pretty sure, again, that they are NOT telling you to try running your gasoline powered cars on e85. The ones that run on e85 are MADE to run on e85. I dont see what the big deal is. Let some people use it. It'll cut down the demand for gasoline when less of the population is using it. That alone will make gas cheaper, sooner.

you keep talking about our lifetime like we aren't in the process of finding alternative fuels as we speak. this is something just for the upcoming decade or two until we figure this hydrogen crap.

[PBodyGT87]

Originally Posted by qwikz28

you keep talking about our lifetime like we aren't in the process of finding alternative fuels as we speak. this is something just for the upcoming decade or two until we figure this hydrogen crap.

We already ARE using our own fuel. But if like you say, we are only gonna do this for another 10, 20 years, then we don't need to drill anymore here.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by PBodyGT87

It'll cut down the demand for gasoline when less of the population is using it. That alone will make gas cheaper, sooner.

i think you are underestimating the greed of some people. the oil companies will NOT allow themselves to lose profit margain or gross income.
this is all proven by recent history. OPEC releases more production to the US market after they see sales falling off. prices drop briefly, then go back up again.
pricing for crude and refined fuels is not supply side, it is demand side. the introduction and backing of E85 by our government will not change that. prices will continue to rise every summer just in time for travel season just because the manufacturers know they can get away with it.

i am also not suggesting that we exclusively use and refine from our own domestic wells. i just wanted to point out that we can easily reduce the percentage reliance on imported crude for the next few hundred years based solely on the limited exploritory drilling that has already been done.

[PBodyGT87]

That's fine, but i still don't see anything wrong with a a few people who want to drive flex-fuel cars.

[Brando56894]

im all for the hydrogen cars of the (near) future, yea gas burns dirty as hell but we gotta use it as for e85 i could give a crap about it if im not mistaken i think some gas stations already use 10% e85 mixed in with regular gas

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by Brando56894

im all for the hydrogen cars of the (near) future, yea gas burns dirty as hell but we gotta use it as for e85 i could give a crap about it if im not mistaken i think some gas stations already use 10% e85 mixed in with regular gas

all gas stations are in the process of the switch and NJ is one of the first to do it first

[Ian]

two years ago when I was going to school out near Pittsburgh, the sunoco stations on the PA turnpike (rt 76) all said they contained 10% ethanol.

[BigAls87Z28]

So....let me make sure Im understanding this ok...

You guys wana make this...




Into this....




so that we can have gas below 2 bucks?

The MAIN point behind E85 will be and will continue to be the end of outside oil dependance, aka the Middle East. It does not matter how much oil WE have, we still NEED the middle east. WE dont have enough oil to support us for very long. No one said E85 will replace or will be manditory for every single car.
And its not mega expensive to own one!! You can get a 23k Impala that runs on E85 in its V6's. There is no major cost you get hit with when you buy an E85 vehicle. Maybe now, but if the parts are more common on vehicles, like they will be for GM, the economies of scale will take place, and it will be nothing to own one, unlike the ownership of a hybrid drive system.

[Ian]

Al get real.....how would they fit that huge tanker ship down that tiny river? they'd probably run a pipeline out to a shipping station. but in order to do that, those mountains would have to get leveled

[JL8Jeff]

Gas prices won't go back down much ever. The price of gas in Europe has been double what we pay for a long, long time. It has nothing to do with oil companies in the US, it's due to the world demand for oil and the available supply OPEC allows. With China and Japan demanding more oil it will only run the price up. So we need alternative mixtures or start drilling in the Artic(I don't know why we aren't since the cost of oil already justifies the increased cost to retrieve it). And while we're looking for other fuel supplies we need to reduce out consumption, plain and simple. There are no mini size pickups or SUV's anymore because we Americans got greedy and wanted bigger, bigger, bigger trucks! Look at the size of the original 4Runner to the current model, it's not even close! The S10 is gone, the Tacoma got bigger, the RAV4 got bigger, the Nissan got bigger. We're a bunch of spoiled brats. I've barely put 10K miles on my 4Runner and Camaro combined for the last 18 months. If people take the time to plan out trips and don't mash the gas pedal to the floor when the light turns green, we can reduce our consumption considerably. But that will never happen.

[PBodyGT87]

Originally Posted by Brando56894

im all for the hydrogen cars of the (near) future, yea gas burns dirty as hell but we gotta use it as for e85 i could give a crap about it if im not mistaken i think some gas stations already use 10% e85 mixed in with regular gas

You are correct, two weeks ago when the gas stations were running out of fuel over the weekends it was because the fuel companies were awaiting the ethanol that they were mixing with gas.They couldn't deliver the fuel until they recieved it and had it mixed with the gas first. Chances are, you're local gas station has already done it. I know stations around my town are, like Brant's BP station with the shop that our neighbor runs.

[BigAls87Z28]

I did notice the 10% thing on a Lukoil station.

[BigAls87Z28]

BTW...read this fellas
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/altf...nergy_bal.html

Since President Bush announced the Advanced Energy Initiative, there has been an increased interest in ethanol as a fuel. Cellulosic ethanol can be produced from fast growing trees, corn stover, grain straw, switchgrass, forest products, waste, and construction waste and may yield a higher energy balance than ethanol made from corn. You can learn more about cellulosic ethanol research by going to the U.S. Department of Energy's Biomass Program Web Site.
Today's ethanol is produced using corn, and an increased demand for ethanol means an additional market for corn, a more stable and profitable farming industry, and an increased level of energy security for our nation.

The production of ethanol is energy efficient as it yields almost 25 percent more energy than is used in growing the corn, harvesting it, and distilling it into ethanol. The most recent findings show that corn ethanol fuel is energy efficient and yields an energy output:input ratio of 1.6. To get further details and view graphical representations of the energy balance picture, go to: Ethanol - The Complete Energy Lifecycle Picture (PDF 4 MB), developed by the U.S. Department of Energy.
Early ethanol plants were energy intensive, raising concerns as to whether the transportation fuel being produced was worth the energy going into making it. But the efficiency of corn ethanol production has increased over the last ten years and technical advancements have improved the net energy value of corn ethanol. Today, producing ethanol from corn using our domestic supplies of coal and natural gas achieves a net gain in the form of energy and helps displace the need for foreign oil.
One of the biggest critics of fuel ethanol is David Pimentel, Cornell University. He asserts that it takes about 70% more energy to grow corn and make ethanol from it than what goes into the ethanol. Among other things, however, his analysis is based on old data and does not give any credit for the energy value of the animal feed co-product of making ethanol. On August 23, 2005, the National Corn Growers Association hosted The Debate on the Net Energy Balance of Ethanol, which directly addresses and refutes Pimentel's claims.

[BonzoHansen]

Maybe is we can make gas out of plants, we can save some farms. All they grow in NJ is oversized & overproced houses.

[jin1481]

what have i started...

[BigAls87Z28]

I dunno, but that website ended it.
E85 does zero damage to engines made to handle E85. There are no draw backs of it unless you were to put it in a car that is not ready for E85. E85 will cut down on forign oil consumption, America FTW.
E85 is no longer energy consuming to make, and as per that web site, they have found easier cheaper and better ways to make it.
E85 cars add little to no cost to a car, unlike the mega expensive hybrid systems.
And in the end, a Silverado with E85 capability will burn less gas per year then a Prius hybrid, and you dont have to look like a tool in ugly looking car to save the world.
GM>*
The End.

[84HOtransam]

ive read extensive research over at TGO about a guy in the midwest using E85 in an dodge strip/street car.

he found the car had to be jetted 146% more with the E85 which increased fuel comsuption even though the E85 was 106 octane.

With the prices at the time of his research he found that even though he needed 146% more fuel overall he saved 25% on fuel costs over the time of his study.

[slugger27nj]

Brazil has all but eliminated it's dependency of foreign oil, so it can be done. Take note of the prices in the photo in the NY Times article.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12676374/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/10/wo...rssnyt&emc=rss

[qwikz28]

ok i had read that ethanol is soluble into metals which was false as it is only (extremely) soluble in water. which is a good thing. ethanol isnt looking so bad.

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by PBodyGT87

no one is FORCING you to use e85, you may continue to use your gas. And I'm pretty sure, again, that they are NOT telling you to try running your gasoline powered cars on e85.

...

Originally Posted by PBodyGT87

You are correct, two weeks ago when the gas stations were running out of fuel over the weekends it was because the fuel companies were awaiting the ethanol that they were mixing with gas.They couldn't deliver the fuel until they recieved it and had it mixed with the gas first. Chances are, you're local gas station has already done it. I know stations around my town are, like Brant's BP station with the shop that our neighbor runs.

if it's being mixed into the gas already how are they not forcing it??

Originally Posted by BigAlz87Z28

E85 does zero damage to engines made to handle E85. There are no draw backs of it unless you were to put it in a car that is not ready for E85.

Again... I'm pretty sure my engine's not made to handle it... so if they're already mixing it into the gas then what does it matter if some engines can handle it?

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

I dunno, but that website ended it.
E85 does zero damage to engines made to handle E85.

how does that end it when about 2% of the vehicles currently on the road are equiped to use E85? where does that leave the rest of us? oh wait i know, spending more money!!! wahoo!! we are getting away from foreign oil by spending mroe money!!! yippeeeee!!!!

what a great solution.

funny how europe has been steadily reducing polution output and consumption for years by taking advantage of advances in diesel technology while the US tries to go off in it's own little direction that is less developed and costs more.
maybe several years down the road ethanol will be the reasonable solution. for now it woudl make sense to use existing technology instead of trying to come up with another multi billion dollar save teh world plan that the next administration will forget.

[BigAls87Z28]

The 10% is not enough to do damage. They wouldnt make it happen if it was gunna cause major stuff to cars. 85% might to an unmoddified engine, but not 10%.

Again, you are not understanding Tim.
No one is forcing you or anyone else to use E85, but there are cars that are made for it, and can run on it. Not even 2% of gas stations in America carry E85. Who is spending more money?

Point is, E85 is a great new source of fuel for cars. Will it take over ALL gas stations? No, but like Diesel, there will be a seperate pump just for E85 cars. Lets not get our panties in a bunch, no one is gunna force E85 into your gas tank.

[BigAls87Z28]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12676374/

yet another article.

Case closed. E85 will offer us better gas and for cheaper. This might cause the price of oil itself to come down as people will not need it as much and will not be in demand. Its a win win for everyone.
Dont wana use it? Fine. Id be more then happy to use E85.

[Brando56894]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

I did notice the 10% thing on a Lukoil station.

yea i forget where i was gettin filled up at (maybe it was at one of the lukoils on the GSP) but i looked over and where they put they store they nozzle it said something about 10% e85

and Al youd be more then happy to use it on your current car or one thats made to run on e85?

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12676374/

yet another article.

Case closed. E85 will offer us better gas and for cheaper. This might cause the price of oil itself to come down as people will not need it as much and will not be in demand. Its a win win for everyone.
Dont wana use it? Fine. Id be more then happy to use E85.

i just read on ls1tech that ford did side by side dynos of a car that was tuned specifically for pure (well 98%) ethanol and it made more power then when it had been tuned for gasoline. i hate you guys, i came into this thread depressed about ethanol and now i'm kinda excited to make the switch and tune my car for e85.

i think the real question is now if america can supply us with enough ethanol to make e85 without creating another dust bowl