Should the government bailout the American car companies?

[SteveR]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Tim is right, image is everything. People still think of the 90's and...hell..even early 2000's. You also have people that might have bought one 80's GM or Ford vehicle and it turned out to be junk, they still swear they'll never buy another domestic. The media doesn't help either...Toyota, Nissan and Hon-duh are Gods in this country, RARELY do you hear of any recalls over the news for them(and yes, they are recalls) yet the second GM or Ford has one it's like someone insulted Jesus...it's all over the news.

GM and Ford will be fine, they made mistakes and were late to the party on what vehicles are selling but they'll come out of this.

Very true, but Ford and GM's recalls have been pretty major Like Ford's recall of the Crown Vics... because if mildly hit in the rear, the gas tank would explode or the Mustangs, with deadly killer airbags Or the whole reason the Explorer got its nickname, the Exploder

[NJSPEEDER]

We can talk about Toyota with the magic 2 piece cams or Honda with their flammable heated seats (not actually catch fire but burn your ass cause the regulators were defective). Even Volkswagon, everyone's favorite cute little car, spent several years finishing dead last in initial customer satisfaction

At the same time you can look at some defects and find something impressive from them, Ford had several thousand trucks go off the assembly line several years ago without head gaskets, none of the engines failed. That is pretty damn impressive.

The American companies got used to winning all the awards and stopped hyping themselves on them. When you stop putting yourself out there as the best, people stop believing you are any good at all, regardless of how much proof of value and quality you actually have.

-Tim

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

...with their flammable heated seats (not actually catch fire but burn your ass cause the regulators were defective)...
-Tim

The seat in my Olds does the same thing.



Toyota was buying tundra engines due to sludge issues and complete tundras due to frame rot. that is pretty major, no?

[BigAls87Z28]

Tacomas had frame rot.
The 3.0 V6's had the sludge problems, so thats every variant of the Camry.
The new Tundra has had a slew of problems. Cam shafts snapping, tranny problems, torque converter shudders, not to mention the tailgates falling apart.
The greatest part is that Motor Trend talked about it in the middle of the article in which it proclaimed it Truck Of The Year??

Toyota also reported its first loss in America for the Q3.

[SteveR]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

The new Tundra has had a slew of problems. Cam shafts snapping, tranny problems, torque converter shudders, not to mention the tailgates falling apart.
The greatest part is that Motor Trend talked about it in the middle of the article in which it proclaimed it Truck Of The Year??

That I will never understand.

[BigAls87Z28]

Especially when it was against the new 08 Silvy 2500 Dmax and the new F250 with the twinturbo diesel, it beat it cause the 3/4 tons and 1 tons were too truckish...

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by SteveR

That I will never understand.

Typical

Toyota does major recall = great customer service
Ford does major recall = ford sucks ass.

[BigAls87Z28]

Yeah, I hear that too. "Well they are taking care of the problem." THE TRANSMISION STOPS WORKING AND THE CAM SHAFTS ARE SNAPPING!!

[shane27]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

Typical

Toyota does major recall = great customer service
Ford does major recall = ford sucks ass.

more like

toyota does 1 major recall=great success!
ford does 11 major recals=yeah, ford sucks ass.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by shane27

more like

toyota does 1 major recall=great success!
ford does 11 major recals=yeah, ford sucks ass.

So when toyota recalled more vehicles than they sold in 2006 that is ok? Was that just 1?

[Mulletbird]

Now, I think a recall on 2-piece cams and frame rot (as well as a few others I know of from work that I'm not allowed to talk about until ... hmm ... 2018) is a bit more major than the ones from Ford. I will stand by any American car.

Now, to get back onto the original topic - we need to do something, bail-out, buy-out, whatever. Either way, think about the economic effects of a loss the big 3 on Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, etc. Keep in mind, it's not just the jobs of the workers at the factories, but those at the supermarkets, cafes, diners, auto service stations, etc. that are on the line. Yes, the big 3 has not been doing as well as they should have for the past 20 years (as in they could've done better, could have forseen the disappearing SUV market, and if they saw that, they would have re-tooled their factories earlier) but then again, we can't afford to have them go out of business.

Now, should we set standards for them? Yes. I think the CEO's flying separate private jets was stupid and imo they should've been forced to hitch-hike their way out there with how poorly they've done their job, but we can't afford to lose GM, Mopar, and Ford. Now a buy-out of one company or another might be necessary (as has been said, we might not in the current economy be able to support 3 but 2 companies might be able to survive) but we can't manage losing all 3 imo.

[BigAls87Z28]

First off, lets dispell the myths.

1) Private Jets. EVERY CEO HAS A PRIVATE JET!! All the clowns from the fiancials that were put in front of the same commitee all flew there on private planes. Was it a bad PR move? Yeah. Did it need to be brought up? No, not at all.

2) The Big 3 did not see the forcoming fuel crisis and kept making SUV's. Well then neither did Toyota, Honda or Nissan. Lets look back in the 5 years. Toyota has upsized its Tacoma and Tundra, and then it moved its SUV's in size as well with the Sequia growing from the size of a large Explorer to bigger then a Suburban. Also included would be the Lexus variants. Lets also not forget Toyota doubling its line up with SUV's. Rav4, Highlander, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, FJ Cruiser and Sequia.
Honda has also added an 7 passanger SUV AND a "half ton" Pick up.
Nissian has also brought in the Titan, Armada (like a fleet of ships) and upsized the Pathfinder now with a V8, Xterra, Fronteer, and added to smaller SUV's the Roque and Murano.

So they didnt "forsee" any sort of gas crisis. Toyota used thier trucks to to built up thier sales. And if you can imagine what profit GM makes off UAW-built Suburbans, imagine the profit on a Sequia built in a non union plant in the deep south. Toyota couldnt stay away, neither could Nissian.

[Frosty]

Maybe the Jap companies didn't see the gas crisis coming up but it seems to me they reacted a lot quicker...lets not give the Big 3 a pass here because other companies didn't see the upcoming crisis.

[foff667]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

First off, lets dispell the myths.

1) Private Jets. EVERY CEO HAS A PRIVATE JET!! All the clowns from the fiancials that were put in front of the same commitee all flew there on private planes. Was it a bad PR move? Yeah. Did it need to be brought up? No, not at all.

2) The Big 3 did not see the forcoming fuel crisis and kept making SUV's. Well then neither did Toyota, Honda or Nissan. Lets look back in the 5 years. Toyota has upsized its Tacoma and Tundra, and then it moved its SUV's in size as well with the Sequia growing from the size of a large Explorer to bigger then a Suburban. Also included would be the Lexus variants. Lets also not forget Toyota doubling its line up with SUV's. Rav4, Highlander, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, FJ Cruiser and Sequia.
Honda has also added an 7 passanger SUV AND a "half ton" Pick up.
Nissian has also brought in the Titan, Armada (like a fleet of ships) and upsized the Pathfinder now with a V8, Xterra, Fronteer, and added to smaller SUV's the Roque and Murano.

So they didnt "forsee" any sort of gas crisis. Toyota used thier trucks to to built up thier sales. And if you can imagine what profit GM makes off UAW-built Suburbans, imagine the profit on a Sequia built in a non union plant in the deep south. Toyota couldnt stay away, neither could Nissian.

1. Did it need to be brought up? eh, I think I would've understanding it probably costs them $20k+ to fly that thing to & from Detroit, now if they filled up that jet with dozens of their own people then it shouldn't be an issue. If it was just the CEO on the plane it sounds a little more disturbing that he couldn't just fly commercial. Its just too easy to point out wastefulness in this case & it definitely didn't help their case.

2. I totally agree, Toyota has gone larger & larger with their vehicles because they know they sell

[BigAls87Z28]

Im not giving them a pass, and yes the Japanese 3 did see to react quickly.
The Big 3 did not pay attention to the car market, that is for sure. But as of about 3-4 years ago, Ford and GM have moved foward with better cars. Chrysler has tried.
First big move was the new Malibu in 04. Its visual appearance was a big polarizing, but it was GMs first solid mid sizer. It was about 2-3 years too late, but still held strong vs Camry in quality. GM then revamped it in 08 and now is class leading. In between, you had the G6 and Saturn Aura to take up the gap.
The Fusion brought another excelent car to the market, along with Milan and Zepher/MKZ. 3 good cars to replace the lower end of the gap left by Taurus.
The Big 3..well, maybe 2, have put together solid vehicles since 2003, and they are getting better.

The Chevy Volt, Cruze, and the whole Family Zero engines have been coming together for years, well before the fuel crisis, not to mention the movements they already made with two-mode hybrids, BAS hybirds, E85, direct injection and HCCI.
Ford has been developing Ecoboost engines for some time as well. Ford has had a hyrbid vehicles on the market for 2 generations now, and coming out with more.
Things have been moving quickly for these large giants. They have developed technology to revolutionize the auto industry, but people cant see past the Hummer H2.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

First off, lets dispell the myths.

1) Private Jets. EVERY CEO HAS A PRIVATE JET!! All the clowns from the fiancials that were put in front of the same commitee all flew there on private planes. Was it a bad PR move? Yeah. Did it need to be brought up? No, not at all. .

First, it was a GIANT PR mistake - they should have known the wolves would have their fangs out - especially the ones from the south that give the foreign companies big incentives to build. Second, just about no CEO shoud have one - it is a colossal waste of sharholder funds. Just because others do it doesn't make it right. Faulty logic.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Im not giving them a pass, and yes the Japanese 3 did see to react quickly.
The Big 3 did not pay attention to the car market, that is for sure. But as of about 3-4 years ago, Ford and GM have moved foward with better cars. Chrysler has tried.
First big move was the new Malibu in 04. Its visual appearance was a big polarizing, but it was GMs first solid mid sizer. It was about 2-3 years too late, but still held strong vs Camry in quality. GM then revamped it in 08 and now is class leading. In between, you had the G6 and Saturn Aura to take up the gap.
The Fusion brought another excelent car to the market, along with Milan and Zepher/MKZ. 3 good cars to replace the lower end of the gap left by Taurus.
The Big 3..well, maybe 2, have put together solid vehicles since 2003, and they are getting better.

The Chevy Volt, Cruze, and the whole Family Zero engines have been coming together for years, well before the fuel crisis, not to mention the movements they already made with two-mode hybrids, BAS hybirds, E85, direct injection and HCCI.
Ford has been developing Ecoboost engines for some time as well. Ford has had a hyrbid vehicles on the market for 2 generations now, and coming out with more.
Things have been moving quickly for these large giants. They have developed technology to revolutionize the auto industry, but people cant see past the Hummer H2.

...and they need to really advertise that. Most people that are looking for economical cars have already dismissed Ford and GM as options due to the stigma they've had for decades...the biggest way to reverse that is advertise and market!

[BigAls87Z28]

Its expected. I have no problem with them having jets. I have no problem with any CEO traveling on company private jets at all.
I have a problem with execs getting rub and tugs to the tune of a half a million dollars, only to return to Washington to get ANOTHER 50 BILLION DOLLARS!! And no one batted an eye lash! NO ONE NOT A SINGLE ****IN SENATOR!!!

[Tsar]

I didn't get a chance to watch today's drama due to end of the semester work, anyone have summary? I only heard that they want more money now.

[BonzoHansen]

I want more money too!

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

I want more money too!

Same, I gotta buy more Christmas presents!

[NJSPEEDER]

It baffles me why so many of these congressmen and senators keep telling the auto industry to help themselves, meanwhile they want to create a socialized 401k system at the same time. So companies are expected to get f'ed over and take it on the chin when they make bad decisions but individuals that are too stupid to invest or be patient enough to see investments mature get a free ride?

We already have one defective Social Security system, it scares me to think these chuckle heads want to add a second instead of insuring millions of people have jobs.

-Tim

[BonzoHansen]

Watching the news right now, GM will over next 3 years....

Cut 31000 jobs
Close 11 of 48 plants
Phase out 2000 dealers
Sell Saab
Sell Saturn

Edit: Add GM excerpt from article on WSJ site:
In the conference call on Tuesday, Mr. Henderson said GM is seeking $12 billion in loans and an additional credit line of $6 billion. In return, GM would be open to giving taxpayers warrants for company stock, a senior position in the company's lineup of creditors, and a promise to pay the money back sometime around 2012.

He said GM believes its North American operations can break even by 2012.

GM plans to begin discussions this week with bondholders and the United Auto Workers in an attempt to cut its debt load by $30 billion, or in about half. That initiative will include a an offer for investors to swap debt for equity in GM, and a restructuring of GM's obligations to a UAW health-care trust set to begin paying benefits to retirees in 2010.

The attempt to restructure the balance sheet is essentially an out-of-court bankruptcy reorganization, Mr. Henderson conceded.

To slim down its operations, GM told Congress it is looking at selling its Saab division, could sell or consolidate its Saturn brand and trim its vehicle line up to about 40 models from 60.

Mr. Henderson said that GM's sprawling manufacturing footprint will be at the same cost level as chief rival Toyota's "no later than 2012." GM will continue trimming jobs, structural costs and attempt to hire lower-cost workers in order to achieve or exceed that goal.

[SteveR]

What's the point of closing out dealerships? That makes no sense, the dealerships are privately owned. Unless they're saying that all this will force them to close on their own

[FBODS4EVER]

not just the private jet issue. i heard one ceo makes 21 million a year. he needs a pay cut. but id like to see the car companies get their money. no reason for the banks to get it. and car co.'s not. they play a major factor in the economy as well. id hate to have to buy one of them bikes with the big wheels like in the 1800's. it'll hurt my arsh.