THE biggest online debate ever? - Page 9 - NJFBOA - Home of New Jersey's Camaros and Firebirds

Teds89IROC · 12-02-2005, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Knight7096

Seriously, i'm not just blowing smoke at you guys, i used to be really, REALLY into planes when i was younger.

then maybe you should have taken up a different hobby

I'm just busting your balls

~Ted

Dark_Knight7096 · 12-02-2005, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teds89IROC

then maybe you should have taken up a different hobby

I'm just busting your balls

~Ted

No, i'll agree, i was a nerd, LOL.

jims69camaro · 12-02-2005, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Okay, I'm going to explain it the same way Matt did for me.

put a toy car on a treadmill and hold it in one position. Now turn the treadmill on and keep holding it there. next, accelerate the treadmill. notice anything? it takes the same amount of energy (thrust) for you to hold the car there at 2 mph and 20 mph. push the car forward and you will notice that no matter how fast the treadmill goes, the car will move forward. you are acting as the jets on the plane and the cars wheels are acting as the planes wheels. the thrust pushed the car forward even though the treadmill accelerated.

go back to the original post.

it does not say anything about:
thrust, wheels, energy or the amount thereof that would be required to hold the plane stationary.

it does say that the conveyor will move backwards to match the plane's speed. if the plane cannot move forward, because the conveyor is moving backwards to match its speed, then it cannot take off.

GP99GT · 12-02-2005, 10:56 AM

if the plane cannot move forward

then the treadmill will not move

think about it.

jims69camaro · 12-02-2005, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GP99GT

if the plane cannot move forward

then the treadmill will not move

think about it.

i have thought about it. now what?

the plane needs to move forward to take off. the second it begins moving forward, the conveyor moves in the opposite direction at the same speed of the plane. the plane cannot move forward, therefore the plane cannot take off.

Teds89IROC · 12-02-2005, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

i have thought about it. now what?

the plane needs to move forward to take off. the second it begins moving forward, the conveyor moves in the opposite direction at the same speed of the plane. the plane cannot move forward, therefore the plane cannot take off.

The second the plane starts to move forward, the conveyer will move in the opposite direction which will just spin the wheels at twice the speed of the planes forward movement.

~Ted

qwikz28 · 12-02-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GP99GT

well youre still not getting it though. the plane is going to be moving forward at a normal speed for takeoff, regardless of how fast the conveyor is moving underneath. we all understand how planes use lift to take off.

The motion would only be counteracted if the plane were driven by the wheels, this has been said numerous times, other people have realized its true, i dunno why some of you are still so stubborn. your car example does not work because the car is driven by the wheels.

some people can be easily persuaded to believe anything. havent you ever heard of propoganda?

why does it matter what drives the plane? velocity is velocity no matter what force is acting upon the object to get it up to speed. any speed will be counteracted with an equal and opposite accleration of the belt.

btw- congrads on the new car martin!

Teds89IROC · 12-02-2005, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwikz28

some people can be easily persuaded to believe anything. havent you ever heard of propoganda?

why does it matter what drives the plane? velocity is velocity no matter what force is acting upon the object to get it up to speed. any speed will be counteracted with an equal and opposite accleration of the belt.

btw- congrads on the new car martin!

So you're saying that this experiment would be the same with a car or a plane because power being supplied by wheels or jets is negligable, that it doesn't matter where the force is being applied?

~Ted

qwikz28 · 12-02-2005, 12:41 PM

i think my theory only applies to a plane at constant speed.

GP99GT · 12-02-2005, 12:48 PM

youre saying that hte plane wont move at all right?

if the plane doesnt move, the conveyor doesnt move. therefore, in order for the conveyor to move, the plane must be able to move forward

qwikz28 · 12-02-2005, 01:25 PM

i confused myself. and im going back to f the plane status.

Dark_Knight7096 · 12-02-2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwikz28

btw- congrads on the new car martin!

Thanks, I appreciate it!!!

I agree with the f the plane status, but i emailed my physics friend about it and when i get his answer i'll post it.

qwikz28 · 12-02-2005, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Knight7096

Thanks, I appreciate it!!!

I agree with the f the plane status, but i emailed my physics friend about it and when i get his answer i'll post it.

[ahem] foff667 [ahem]

BigAls87Z28 · 12-02-2005, 07:14 PM

This is a job for the Myth Busters. Without air flowing over the wing, there can be no lift. Tell me where the wind is coming from, to cause lift, and then I will tell you if its gunna lift or not.
Engines are just there to push the plane through the air at a certain speed to where it will eventualy lift, due to the air going over the wing. Its physics, you need air flow in order to produce lift, or you are using a Harrier type air plane.

BigAls87Z28 · 12-02-2005, 07:30 PM

It would have to be a very big convery belt system for this to happen.
The plane would still need to build up air speed for it to take off, just like a regular run way.

qwikz28 · 12-02-2005, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

It would have to be a very big convery belt system for this to happen.
The plane would still need to build up air speed for it to take off, just like a regular run way.

not unless you scale it down with a rc plane

GP99GT · 12-03-2005, 12:04 AM

im still waiting for tsar to put a skateboard/fan on his treadmill....maybe he did it and realized hes wrong?

and Al...i thought you were smarter than this. the plane is moving forward! none of you seem to understand that it HAS to be able to move forward. if it cant move forward, then the conveyor doesnt move either. if the conveyor moves, the plane is moving, which means its going to make lift and eventually take off.

BigAls87Z28 · 12-03-2005, 02:24 AM

Yes, it will take off.....after traveling down a this runway, conveyor or not. The way I thought of it, and probably how many people do, is that the plan is sitting on a belt about the same aprox. size of the plane, to which if it moves, it will just roll off the belt, and onto wherever the belt is sitting.
I understand it, its just stupid. No **** it will take off, its gunna travel down the runway, but the fact of the matter still stands that the plane must be moving foward in order to create lift. The belt system is just some extra info that is thrown in to **** with your head and play on what you already know about conveyer belt systems.
The belt and the wheels cancel eachother out. Its just as if ithe plane was taxing down the runway, and taking off. This is not some sort of modern mirical, cause NASA or the Goverment would have done it already. Dont think too hard.

GP99GT · 12-03-2005, 07:43 AM

now im confused. are you saying it will take off, no matter how fast/long the conveyor is? or are you still being stubborn

enRo · 12-03-2005, 08:20 AM

How about we do this... next time someone is at a shopping center, grab an old matchbox car and while the conveyer is moving, just nudge the car in the opposite direction. Its basically the same thing cuz the wheels on the car arent being powered.

Tsar · 12-03-2005, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GP99GT

im still waiting for tsar to put a skateboard/fan on his treadmill....maybe he did it and realized hes wrong?

i didnt do it yet. i came back lae yesterday so i had no time. if im wrong ill post it anyways no need to worry about that.

BigAls87Z28 · 12-03-2005, 08:33 AM

Im saying that it will take off, but the conveyor deal is just information that has zero to do with the plane taking off. As long as the plane moves foward under its own thrust, it doesnt matter whats under it, as long as the plane can pick up air speed to cause lift, and take off.

Tsar · 12-03-2005, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Im saying that it will take off, but the conveyor deal is just information that has zero to do with the plane taking off. As long as the plane moves foward under its own thrust, it doesnt matter whats under it, as long as the plane can pick up air speed to cause lift, and take off.

actually whats under the wheels matters alot, if the surface is not smooth it will cuz drag therefot it will take very long to gain a needed speed. I have stories of people landing in the field and not being able to take off again if you interested (thats from when i used to go to school)

GP99GT · 12-03-2005, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Im saying that it will take off, but the conveyor deal is just information that has zero to do with the plane taking off. As long as the plane moves foward under its own thrust, it doesnt matter whats under it, as long as the plane can pick up air speed to cause lift, and take off.

which is exactly what ive been saying this entire time

at least some people get it

GP99GT · 12-03-2005, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsar

actually whats under the wheels matters alot, if the surface is not smooth it will cuz drag therefot it will take very long to gain a needed speed. I have stories of people landing in the field and not being able to take off again if you interested (thats from when i used to go to school)

thats a bumpy field with lots of brush and stuff...this is a flat conveyor belt with nothing on it. big difference