T56 - rough shifting, clutch hydraulics? - NJFBOA - Home of New Jersey's Camaros and Firebirds

Teds89IROC · 08-03-2017, 10:39 PM

**UPDATE**

For anyone following, I dropped the trans and the pilot bearing was on its way out with missing bearings. I replaced it with a bushing as well as replaced the throwout bearing and put it all back together which solved my problem.

As the title says..with the engine running, clutch in, shifter doesnt row as easy, reverse needs force and a couple tries before going. Engine off, clutch pushed in, no issues at all, nice and smooth. My fluid in the reservoir was full but dirty, I tried bleeding it first with no difference so I got a new slave cylinder as it made sense to what I read. Completely bled and the issue is not much better. This probably points to my master but is there any way to test it before I waste effort? I assumed the slave would go first but my experience is limited. What are your thoughts?

Blackbirdws6 · 08-03-2017, 11:14 PM

Def try replacing the fluid first and rebleeding. I had similar issues a while back and after changing the fluid along with a mightyvac, everything went back to normal. Hopefully that's all it is.

Teds89IROC · 08-04-2017, 08:34 AM

fluid was replaced and bled when i changed the slave cylinder, made a slight improvement.

Blackbirdws6 · 08-04-2017, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teds89IROC

fluid was replaced and bled when i changed the slave cylinder, made a slight improvement.

Ahh. Just because I'm curious but how are you bleeding the system? Pumping the slave with your hand?

Teds89IROC · 08-04-2017, 09:25 AM

first pumped the slave with my hand till everything was full then used the mighty vac as a final step once everything was buttoned up

Blackbirdws6 · 08-04-2017, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teds89IROC

first pumped the slave with my hand till everything was full then used the mighty vac as a final step once everything was buttoned up

Well that all sounds correct. Looks like you are going to need to replace the master, otherwise....

redsoxsstink · 08-06-2017, 02:35 AM

I had a similar problem with the same symptoms recently in the 71 we have with a t56. I rebuilt the master cylinder and bled everything out and that fixed the problem. With factory stuff you cant rebuild, you just replace. I came to the conclusion rebuilding the master because 1 it was cheaper, 2 Ive never seen a slave go bad that didn't leak the fluid out. Generally the slaves fail first but like I said without leak the fluid I didn't think it was bad.

In the end it worked, not sure if I did the proper diag on it. Doing it again I would have started with a bleed and the go on.

creeper · 08-06-2017, 08:53 AM

While hydraulics are usually the issue, at one point I bled my master 30 times and eventually replaced it only to find out I had a bad pilot bearing which caused similar crappy shifting.

Do you have any "ksHhHh" noise while in gear with the clutch in that goes away in neutral after releasing the clutch?

Teds89IROC · 08-09-2017, 02:13 PM

Got a new master in and the issue didn't really change much. Though I want to bleed it again because it seemed to bleed faster than it should have but my pump broke so I couldn't go back and pump the clutch any more.
The reservoir had a lot of crap in it and fluid was discolored so no doubt in my mind that one of the pieces was shot. Next question, the steel braided line that goes from the master to the slave cylinder has a rubber part to it that i thought that was just a sleeve but its not. Common for this to deteriorate and interfere with pressure?

No noise like Creeper mentioned or any noise in gear clutch in.

PolarBear · 08-09-2017, 02:49 PM

I have read a lot about dirt and whatnot getting into the GM slave cylinders in the F-body. I plan on changing the fluid in the reservoir every 6 months or so just to keep up on it. Just suck out what little is in the reservoir and put in new brake fluid

The issue you're having can be related to an input shaft spinning while you push the clutch in. You may need to separate the two and have a look at your pilot bushing/bearing and see if it is rubbing, or some other clutch related issue and not the hydraulics.

cycomiko · 08-11-2017, 02:59 PM

Just my .02. I had the same issues before and tried to bleed the system. Its not worth the aggravation to bleed it. I ended up buying the complete system. It comes sealed and with fluid in it. Easy peasy....

cycomiko · 08-11-2017, 03:14 PM

ACDELCO 1741072. Amazon has it for 120 bucks. This way there is no second guessing the system. If the symptoms are still there you know its time to drop the trans and have a look. Just one route to take.......

Teds89IROC · 08-11-2017, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cycomiko

Just my .02. I had the same issues before and tried to bleed the system. Its not worth the aggravation to bleed it. I ended up buying the complete system. It comes sealed and with fluid in it. Easy peasy....

Wish I went this route from the beginning instead of buying it piece by piece and I still have the used GM braided line with the rubber which has me questioning.
Bled it again and no bubbles, took the car out last night for a good 45 minutes or so and didn't have issues driving 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 etc but with the car stopped to R or N to 1st felt the same as before.
Trying to decide if I should buy this http://www.ebay.com/itm/T56-T5-Swap-...38.m2548.l4275 then at least I know I can rule out everything hydraulic. Or, buy the new complete sealed system and try to sell the new slave and master I just bought.

Teds89IROC · 08-28-2017, 10:13 PM

UPDATE

Been going away every weekend which is cutting into my wrench time. Anyway, I bought that new line figuring I already had the master and slave, manually bled the slave using my cell phone as a pair of eyes to watch for bubbles in the reservoir. After that I then used the vacuum pump which took out more air and I kept bleeding till there was absolutely no bubbles. Put the plastic cap back on the slave cylinder to keep it compressed and bolted to the trans. Fired the car up and everything still feels the same. Tried bleeding the reservoir with the pump and still no bubbles. I decided to unbolt the slave and noticed the plastic strap is still in tact, so the rod never fully extended. Tried as best I could to look at the clutch fork assembly and it definitely feels sloppy but it is sitting on the throw out bearing and sits flush with the lip of the trans. Looks like my only option is to pull the trans back and have a look but I'm stumped as to why that strap wouldn't have broke, how could there not be enough pressure with no air in the line

Blackbirdws6 · 08-29-2017, 01:32 AM

Something is up with the hydraulics if its not breaking the slave strap. Are you sure the master isn't out of adjustment? I know mine has a threaded end to adjust the pedal.

Teds89IROC · 08-29-2017, 09:08 AM

i don't think it's adjustable, it's the factory replacement. I had the boot slid up and it just goes into what looks like a plunger and the rod spins freely in either direction.

Blackbirdws6 · 08-29-2017, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teds89IROC

i don't think it's adjustable, it's the factory replacement. I had the boot slid up and it just goes into what looks like a plunger and the rod spins freely in either direction.

Ahh gotcha. I thought perhaps you had an aftermarket master. Regardless, it doesn't sound like you aren't getting enough travel out of the slave so I'm still banking on this being a hydraulic issue. Sadly may want to pull the entire master/slave setup and bench bleed it together. I would do this before you go pulling the trans.

FlyingDutchman · 08-29-2017, 10:04 AM

Dumb question, but did you break the rest of the strap ? Or leave it partially intact ?

Teds89IROC · 08-29-2017, 10:08 AM

It's still strapped and hanging under the car, I didn't bolt it back to the bell housing yet.

Teds89IROC · 08-29-2017, 10:35 AM

Could it be possible that the clutch fork somehow became misaligned, maybe pivot bolt worked its way loose and something is keeping it from fully disengaging the clutch? In other words, i'm getting just enough movement to be able to drive the car and forcefully shift gears, but not enough travel to break the strap, like the fork is being stopped. The clutch pedal feels good, not mushy or too stiff.

Another note, I have a locker rear which notoriously *bang* when the car is put into drive. I get a bang going from N to 1st, but not every time. Which tells me the clutch is not fully being disengaged. I really think I need to slide the trans back...

PolarBear · 08-29-2017, 10:41 AM

How many miles are on the clutch?

Teds89IROC · 08-29-2017, 10:51 AM

maybe 5,000 miles

FlyingDutchman · 08-29-2017, 12:42 PM

Did you check the slave rod isn't bent? I ruined one when it popped out between the bellhousing and clutch fork. Bent it just enough to work but made shifting difficult cause the throw was reduced. It was hard to see cause of the boot.

Teds89IROC · 08-29-2017, 01:00 PM

I didn't but I'll check tonight

Teds89IROC · 08-30-2017, 08:15 PM

Slave rod looks good. While it was hanging and strap on, I gently pushed the clutch and the strap broke. Tried bleeding with the pump and still no air in the system. Pulled the clutch fork off the TO bearing and put it back on, nothing felt wrong about it. Bolted the slave back on, started the car, no difference.
I'm thinking it's an issue with the clutch assembly and I'm preparing to slide the trans back.