Another court thread... but I really didn't do anything...

[79CamaroDiva]

I just need opinions whether people think I should bother fighting this with an attorney, or getting it lowered/dropped on my own..

I'll start by saying I currently have 5 or 6 points on my license, purely because if I get caught speeding, I don't bother fighting it because I KNOW I was wrong, and I got caught.. and also bc my insurance won't go up for points, so I never saw the need to pay $500 to get unsafe driving and no points..

Anyhow, a month or so ago I was in the left lane and passed a pack of cars on Rt 80.. one of those cars happened to be a cop, I didn't think anything of it because I wasn't actually blatantly speeding (only about 70 in a 65, tell me I'm wrong, but thats not a reason to get stopped).. I move over as soon as I finish passing this group of cars and see the cop followed me.. ends up pulling me over..

He pulls up, asks if I know why he pulled me over, I say no sir, not really. He says I was going a little fast back there.. I say "Was I really? I didn't notice" He never tells me how fast I was going, my guess is because he can't, and takes my paperwork and off he goes. That's when I realized my insurance card was expired so I had to give him the old one. I figured I'd get a document ticket, which I would pay and not fight.

He comes back and says "well, I won't give you a ticket for speeding or your documents, I'm going to let you off with a careless driving ticket for driving in the left lane. It's a 2 point ticket, you're only supposed to use the left lane for passing." Meanwhile, I WAS using it for passing, I passed HIM! As soon as it was clear I pulled back over to the center lane, mostly because I noticed him pulling out behind me, but regardless, I wasn't in the left lane longer than necessary.

There's a million threads on here for fighting tickets that are actually deserved, but I honestly feel this is a complete ticket... thoughts?

[JW]

Well, technically either ticket will be a 2 point ticket. Careless is 2 and speeding 1-14 mph over limit is a 2 point ticket. Since you were in the wrong for speeding you really ended up just getting cuaght and it sucks but what can you do. Like you said he could have wrote you another ticket for the document expired too.

All that said, I would try to plead it to unsafe, simply because of the points and that if you are at 5 -6 points now on your license, you are now going to be surcharged for the next 3 years!

Also, how does your insurance not go up from points?

JW

[SteveR]

Yea fight that. Go to court and tell the judge you WERE using the left lane to pass. Before court though talk to the prosecutor and try and work a deal with him before court starts. If you talk to him before court starts he can look into it and talk to the judge and see what they can do. If you know someone who's a cop see if they can go with you. It can sometimes help to have a cop friend with you to also talk to the prosecutor. Be prepared though, a lot of times if they change the ticket and remove the points, the judge likes to increase the fine. I would personally fight it. By getting points on your license it resets the timer to get points removed, so 12 months from the court date with zero infractions to get the first two points taken off. I forget what the barrier is in NJ but at some point and I think it's six points when you cross it the state fines you annually per point on your license until they're gone. So by crossing the six point barrier, you could end up paying an additional annually fee of a few hundred dollars to the state for having points on your license. Then if you get pulled over for anything and get even a minor ticket, your points timer resets to 12 months and you get another annual surcharge on your license. It comes in the mail and if you don't pay it they suspend your license. At least that's how it worked a few years ago when I got pulled over all the time and had a consistent nine to eleven points on my license lol

[79CamaroDiva]

Originally Posted by JW

Well, technically either ticket will be a 2 point ticket. Careless is 2 and speeding 1-14 mph over limit is a 2 point ticket. Since you were in the wrong for speeding you really ended up just getting cuaght and it sucks but what can you do. Like you said he could have wrote you another ticket for the document expired too.

All that said, I would try to plead it to unsafe, simply because of the points and that if you are at 5 -6 points now on your license, you are now going to be surcharged for the next 3 years!

Also, how does your insurance not go up from points?

JW

1-14 over is a 2 point ticket, but from what I understand, 5mph or less is no reason to even run your plate, let alone pull you over.. between that and the fact that he was in the right lane, within a pack of cars and it appeared he was getting off at the next exit so I doubt he was even fast enough to grab my mph, I don't believe he has a speed on me. He couldn't tell me how fast I was going, and generally they say right away if they do.

Allstate platinum insurance does not go up for moving violations.. my insurance is the same rate its been for the last year almost 2 years since I got my HHR

[SteveR]

Originally Posted by JW

Well, technically either ticket will be a 2 point ticket. Careless is 2 and speeding 1-14 mph over limit is a 2 point ticket. Since you were in the wrong for speeding you really ended up just getting cuaght and it sucks but what can you do. Like you said he could have wrote you another ticket for the document expired too.

JW

That actually works out better for her. He chose to only issue her a ticket for something she'll have a much easier time fighting in court. Speeding is a bit harder to disprove. He did her a favor, but she still has the right to defend herself. He can't issue the other tickets after the fact so all she has to do is prove she was using the left lane to pass.



Since police cars have dash cameras, ask if it is available in court. If you were only going 5 over, it'll show you passing responsibly and moving back into your lane.

[SteveR]

Originally Posted by 79CamaroDiva

1-14 over is a 2 point ticket, but from what I understand, 5mph or less is no reason to even run your plate, let alone pull you over.. between that and the fact that he was in the right lane, within a pack of cars and it appeared he was getting off at the next exit so I doubt he was even fast enough to grab my mph, I don't believe he has a speed on me. He couldn't tell me how fast I was going, and generally they say right away if they do.

Allstate platinum insurance does not go up for moving violations.. my insurance is the same rate its been for the last year almost 2 years since I got my HHR

He can't site you with speeding after the fact so don't worry about that. He can say whatever he wants in court but the judge will ask him if he sited you for it, he'll say no, and the judge will tell him to move on. The only issue in court will be the one ticket you got which is the careless, which is a retarded ticket for passing. If anything it would be like a failure to yield. The more I think about it now, I'm sure the judge will lower it. I've never heard of a careless for driving in the left lane.

[Whiplash Performance]

Fight it since you were in the left lane to pass the slower pack of cars. Going 5 over is usually a slow pace for route 80.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by SteveR

Since police cars have dash cameras, ask if it is available in court. If you were only going 5 over, it'll show you passing responsibly and moving back into your lane.

not all cruisers have dash cameras , and they don't usually come on until the lights and sirens are turned on, so it probably would have shown her passing either way

Originally Posted by Whiplash Performance

Fight it since you were in the left lane to pass the slower pack of cars. Going 5 over is usually a slow pace for route 80.

passing yes, saying you were only speeding because everyone else does is not the best argument

[r0nin89]

Originally Posted by SteveR

He can't site you with speeding after the fact so don't worry about that. He can say whatever he wants in court but the judge will ask him if he sited you for it, he'll say no, and the judge will tell him to move on. The only issue in court will be the one ticket you got which is the careless, which is a retarded ticket for passing. If anything it would be like a failure to yield. The more I think about it now, I'm sure the judge will lower it. I've never heard of a careless for driving in the left lane.

How is a careless suitable for driving in the left lane anyway? The definition of a careless in layman's terms is performing an illegal act/maneuver that you didnt do on purpose. So if you were purposely in the left passing like you were suppose to how is that careless or illegal?

If its illegal to pass in the left lane they might as well plant ****ing flowers and trees in all lanes but the right cause theres no point in having multiple lane roads then...

I would go there and explain yourself. It'll probably get thrown out and as said he cant say well fine heres a ticket for speeding I didnt cite you for then. On top of the fact that its not very hard to get a pacing ticket thrown out. Just be careful driving through that area again. The cops probably gonna wanna stick it to ya if he ever sees you again.

[79T/A]

1-14 over is a 2 point ticket, but from what I understand, 5mph or less is no reason to even run your plate, let alone pull you over.. between that and the fact that he was in the right lane, within a pack of cars and it appeared he was getting off at the next exit so I doubt he was even fast enough to grab my mph, I don't believe he has a speed on me. He couldn't tell me how fast I was going, and generally they say right away if they do.

I gotta break this down a little.

1-14 over is a 2 point ticket, but from what I understand, 5mph or less is no reason to even run your plate, let alone pull you over..

I understand that this is the general belief that the public has on speed enforcement, and I'll admit, most cops won't bother with someone doing less than five or ten miles per hour hour over the speed limit, but there's nothing in Title 39 that says they can't. And a cop can run your plate randomly anytime he/she wants to (Note: By randomly, I mean that the officer can run the plate through the computer in a random mode that only reveals the make, model and year of the car unless it or it's owner is suspended, wanted, etc. For a detailed inquiry that includes the owner's name and address, there must be reasonable suspicion.) The actual stop requires an articulable reason, such as a violation, well-being check, or investigation.

between that and the fact that he was in the right lane, within a pack of cars and it appeared he was getting off at the next exit so I doubt he was even fast enough to grab my mph, I don't believe he has a speed on me. He couldn't tell me how fast I was going, and generally they say right away if they do.

Most people think that the way radar works is that the cop points the radar, reads your speed, then pulls you over for it. In order to be certified as a radar operator, it requires at least 80 hours of training (At least, that's how it was when I did it many years ago). The officer is supposed to be able to see the approaching vehicle and gauge its speed and then use the radar to confirm what he/she sees. Therefore, an officer is supposed to know how fast you are going whether the radar is on or not. That training is just for occasions like this one. Careless was issued rather than speeding because the radar most likely wasn't used to confirm what the trooper saw.

All this means is that the officer would be subpoenaed for court, as would the record of his training. Once the judge is satisfied the officer is a certified radar operator capable of judging your speed with or without radar, you'll probably lose.

The prosecutor is also going to make your record of points and speeding well known to the judge, and between that and the only defense you'd be putting up would essentially be yours versus the trooper's, I don't believe it's worth fighting. I would look into reducing the points if possible. The judge isn't going to care about how fast you think you were going. The judge is going to side with whoever is the most believable.

[fmybody]

in most cases if you go to fight they drop it down a level regardless.. so u can go and get the unsafe for 0pts... thats all i can say lol it would be a waste to get a lawyer cause it would cost u more than its worth imo

on the other hand u now have a good 8 pts or w/e so i dunno how they will treat you.

i would at least try to fight it, worse comes to worst you get the same ticket you came in with right?

[sweetbmxrider]

i thought they got rid of unsafe operation of a motor vehicle? anyways, if your insurance doesn't go up for points, you'll be paying way more for the unsafe ticket than the careless ticket.

[JW]

The surcharges are what I would be worried about.

JW

[Mark42]

I would talk to the prosecutor and see if it can be reduced to a non-moving infraction. Then pay the fine and leave. Otherwise, you are stuck with the points and fine.

[Frosty]

How is that a careless driving offense? I thought there was a specific infraction for driving in the left lane...can anyone clear that up?

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by Frosty

How is that a careless driving offense? I thought there was a specific infraction for driving in the left lane...can anyone clear that up?

officer's discretion. misuse of the left hand lane for passing could be careless. exceeding the speed limit to pass a car doing the speed limit is careless. (not accusing, just saying)

[Frosty]

That's a pretty big gray area, no?

[r0nin89]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

officer's discretion. misuse of the left hand lane for passing could be careless. exceeding the speed limit to pass a car doing the speed limit is careless. (not accusing, just saying)

How is that careless? If anything depending on the officers prerogative it would be either unsafe or reckless.

Careless at least the way the prosecutor explained it to me doesnt suit a case in which an individual willingly perform the act the officer finds illegal. I was always told that this ticket was pretty much originally for people who were in accidents because they did something stupid (IE someone who slams the gas instead of the brake or just couldnt negotiate a situation) but was doing it willingly. Doing it willingly would be the laws definition of a reckless.

Please would a LEO correct me if I'm wrong because this is how I had it explained to me by a cop, prosecutor, and people who have faced either or.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by r0nin89

Please would a LEO correct me if I'm wrong because this is how I had it explained to me by a cop, prosecutor, and people who have faced either or.

I'm curious to the answer as well, I'm certainly not an expert but know a little(dad's side of the family is law enforcement so I picked up a little from them before I cut them out of my life, lol).

I just don't see how that's careless driving.

[SteveR]

Originally Posted by Frosty

How is that a careless driving offense? I thought there was a specific infraction for driving in the left lane...can anyone clear that up?

Yep, there is a specific ticket for driving in the left lane without passing.

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by SteveR

Yep, there is a specific ticket for driving in the left lane without passing.

she was passing and she admitted she did not know why the officer pulled her over. she was carelessly not observing her speed. its a catch all or umbrella ticket. there really isn't a true definition and i have gotten one before without it pertaining to an accident or the like.

[r0nin89]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

she was passing and she admitted she did not know why the officer pulled her over. she was carelessly not observing her speed. its a catch all or umbrella ticket. there really isn't a true definition and i have gotten one before without it pertaining to an accident or the like.

Ah ok viewing it from that angle I can understand what your saying.

[Firebird92]

i don't see any reasoning behind this
you can go on any highway in NJ and clock 50+ cars going 80+ (now i know the law only apply for the one getting pulled over) so it was your turn that day

the only way the officer knows she was going "a little fast" is because she passed him but what if he was going 55? 45?. i got pulled over for a 51 in a 50 the judge laughed at the ticket. i would just fight it because in the end there's not prove just the cops word in some cases that enough but a traffic needs some evidenced i believe

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by r0nin89

Ah ok viewing it from that angle I can understand what your saying.

yeah i'm not saying i'm right, just my take.

Originally Posted by Firebird92

i don't see any reasoning behind this
you can go on any highway in NJ and clock 50+ cars going 80+ (now i know the law only apply for the one getting pulled over) so it was your turn that day

the only way the officer knows she was going "a little fast" is because she passed him but what if he was going 55? 45?. i got pulled over for a 51 in a 50 the judge laughed at the ticket. i would just fight it because in the end there's not prove just the cops word in some cases that enough but a traffic needs some evidenced i believe

ever see the check box on the bottom of a ticket labeled "PACE"? ya, that works too.

[79CamaroDiva]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

ever see the check box on the bottom of a ticket labeled "PACE"? ya, that works too.

I know for sure he didn't pace me, he was literally in this pack of cars, probably a dozen or so, all going less than the speed limit presumably because he was in it. He was in the right lane, as soon as I saw that he was in it, I finished passing the people and moved over. He didnt get behind me until after I was already out of the left lane. He had to move 3 lanes over to the left (this is where its a 4 lane road, and he was in the farthest right lane) then move one lane right to get behind me along with come out of a bunch of traffic so he's gotta look where he's actually going. I don't think accurate pacing is possible during this type of a maneuver..

And I'm not saying that he couldn't have gotten a speed on me, I'm saying that if he HAD, he wouldn't have pulled me over for it.. and if he really did need to give a ticket for 4 or 5 over, he would have told me what he clocked me at.

The speed is really not the point of this thread though, since he didn't cite me for it.. I'm just curious what kind of a chance I have of fighting a careless driving ticket in court that I (and most others) feel is unwarranted.