Define "Numbers matching"

[Oddball]

I hear the term "numbers" matching when talking about classic cars. Does this just mean my IROC has a 305 or is there an actual block casting that has to be there? What specific numbers are they looking at?

[79CamaroDiva]

there's an actual casting on the block that matches with the VIN number of the car.

[The Fixer]

Originally Posted by 79CamaroDiva

there's an actual casting on the block that matches with the VIN number of the car.

That's usually for the correct chalk-mark and date-codes on the firewall freaks though. IMO, if the car isn't a really low-production model car, modify the everluvin' crap out of it!

[Oddball]

Originally Posted by TPI Monte SS

That's usually for the correct chalk-mark and date-codes on the firewall freaks though. IMO, if the car isn't a really low-production model car, modify the everluvin' crap out of it!

Thanks -- I was just curious what it meant.

[NJSPEEDER]

the production information will be able to match up the dates and correct part numbers of all of your major components to prove teh car is original.
with older cars there is a portion of the vin stamped onto the block and trans along with all the casting and date codes on the parts to prove it is original.
later cars like your IROC would only be able to prove through a correct vin, rpo sheet, and matching(tiem frame, not the exact same date) production dates on the major components.

[jims69camaro]

Originally Posted by TPI Monte SS

That's usually for the correct chalk-mark and date-codes on the firewall freaks though. IMO, if the car isn't a really low-production model car, modify the everluvin' crap out of it!

i agree. but save the original pieces. if the price of your car goes through the roof, you'll be glad you did.

my car is a perfect example. it's a prime candidate for an LS-X upgrade along with a 4l60e and 9 inch, plus all of the suspension upgrades. should i decide to modify it at all, the original pieces will be bagged and tagged for future reference. just because it's a coupe doesn't mean i should throw away the original motor.

[BonzoHansen]

Right. It is real easy for someone to tell someone else to 'modify it' when it isn't their potential resale value. Although you may never want to sell your car, life bekons and makes your plans change.

I'm no crazy restore guy with marks & etc., hell, I coudn't afford it. But I have no place telling them I think they are wrong. I think a lot of the cars I see that are modified are ****ed up, but I generally keep it to myself. Unless it is stupid safety related. Then I might chime in.

[jims69camaro]

that's why they call them customs. one person's idea of customized is another person's idea of bastardized.

[Oddball]

I don't plan on mucking with the drivetrain except for maybe an aluminum driveshaft and steel braded brake lines. My "mods" are mostly interior stuff.

[JL8Jeff]

"Numbers matching" is really more important on the pre 1972 Chevrolet cars. Starting in 1972 the engine was coded into the VIN for Chevrolet cars. Prior to that the VIN only told you if it had a V8 originally or not. Some VIN's on Chevelle's are SS specific but not for Camaros. So for a 67-71 Camaro it's pretty important to have the original motor and transmission with the partial VIN stamped into it. It's not that big of a deal for the low performance motors like the 327 2 bbl and 307 motors. But for SS, Z28, COPO 427 cars it adds a lot of value. The 67's had some of the engine options coded into the firewall trim tag and some of the 69's also show the SS or Z28 option on the trim tag and some of the 70-74 show them as well. But there are a lot of fake, transferred and reproduction tags popping up so you can't trust the tag alone to prove a car is an SS or Z28. My 69 Z28 has the Protect-o-plate which is the warranty card plate showing the engine, trans, rear, radio, brake options. My motor and trans have the partial VIN stamped in them proving they are the originals and I also have the broadcast sheet that was glued on the gas tank showing most of the options.

[WayFast84]

So I should save my intake, cam and exhuast manifolds? even though they are rusty as ****

[Squirrel]

Originally Posted by WayFast84

So I should save my intake, cam and exhuast manifolds? even though they are rusty as ****

nope, you have a mass production third gen...throw away as you go

[The Fixer]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

Right. It is real easy for someone to tell someone else to 'modify it' when it isn't their potential resale value. Although you may never want to sell your car, life bekons and makes your plans change.

True enough, but that's why I also said leave it alone unless it was something mass-produced (and therefore not rare and going to have a rediculous resale value).

My arguement was really for the 3rd and 4th Gen F-cars, since that's what Oddball owns. If I had a rare option car, like a yellow '87 IROC, or an '02 Camaro SS, or a '93 Camaro Pace Car, I'd leave the car alone. Now, if it was a regular base-model coupe, or a Formula with a TBI motor, I'd throw caution to the wind and mod the hell out of it. The latter two examples will never be worth what the other rare models are, all conditions equal.

[BonzoHansen]

I hear you. I just hate when numbers guys get mad about a car being changed, or a regular joe complaing about the numbers crowd, or the pro-street crowd complaining about the pro-touring guys, or old timers fearing electric fans, or...you get the picture. It is a pet peeve of mine. People don't just shut their yaps enough.

Now, I hate phony RS/SS/Z28s

[The Fixer]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

the pro-street crowd complaining about the pro-touring guys

I hear ya there! There's always a few old-timer guys at the Whiskey Cafe cruise night I go to, and they are either of the resto crowd or Pro-Street crowd. They really don't understand why I built my car to go quicker around a corner, and stop better than it ever would with useless OEM brakes, and converted it to fuel injection. Pro-street cars may take me off the line, but I'll blow past 'em at the first curve and have a big grin on my face while they're holding on for dear life.

Now, I hate phony RS/SS/Z28s

Amen! Put the hideaway-headlights on a non-RS all you want, just don't put the damn badge on it if it wasn't a factory RS. See, we do think alike!

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by TPI Monte SS

Amen! Put the hideaway-headlights on a non-RS all you want, just don't put the damn badge on it if it wasn't a factory RS. See, we do think alike!

Indeed. Funny, both my cars are verified via their cowl tag. But, the RS especially, is so 'me too' it angers me.

But my lights will 'hideaway'!

[JL8Jeff]

Hmmm, I like the numbers matching when it will really affect the value but when you step back and really look at the vehicle you need to recognize if it will really have increased value or not. My 93 Indy Pace Car already had 28K miles on it when I got it so I knew it wouldn't be holding a lot of value compared to the cars with less than 50 miles. So I put as supercharger on it and drove it every day. That car was 1 of 645 made but really wasn't a high value car. My 91 454SS pickup already had a crate motor in it when I got it and it was 1 of 986 made but I knew it wouldn't be a high value vehicle either. So for number's matching to really matter a lot, the vehicle has to have some really good options, be a high performance version or limited production with demand. A 67 Camaro with a front bench seat is a limited production option, but nobody is gonna pay extra money for it.

[BonzoHansen]

But you could take the supercharger off and return it to oe state. # match <> low mileage.

[JL8Jeff]

I removed the supercharger and sold it. Then I sold the car with 74K miles on it. But a lot of OE stuff was already removed and gone. It had no effect on the selling price either. The 93 Indy Pace Car was a dress up package, not a performance package. So the limited production doesn't help the value as much as something like a GNX or a TTA.

[BonzoHansen]

Something like that you probably would have held it for many more years to realize anything. It would have been worth more in 20 years then a regular Camaro. But probably not enough to warrant holding on to it.

[JL8Jeff]

Yeah, that's the tough thing. How do you hold a car for 20+ years and not drive it or put any miles on it and hope it increases in value? I couldn't do that.

[jims69camaro]

Originally Posted by JL8Jeff

How do you hold a car for 20+ years and not drive it or put any miles on it?

you restore it, silly.

[JL8Jeff]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

you restore it, silly.

Oh yeah! I forgot all about that car. I don't know what I'll do if he finishes the restoration this year.

[BonzoHansen]

Ha!

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by TPI Monte SS

Now, if it was a regular base-model coupe, I'd throw caution to the wind and mod the hell out of it.