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11-12-2014, 07:32 PM
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#1
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: NNJ
Posts: 1,489
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Blown HG: What am I up against?
Car must have overheard my conversation about buying a more fuel efficient daily driver
Some background on the car: '97 Z28, just rolled 118k, actually blew a HG in 2008 but ended up bending a rod. So, motor was rebuilt with fresh seals at around 64k by a local mechanic. Nothing crazy done to the car, just whatever is listed below. It's seen maybe 30 track passes in its life, as recent as 2 weeks ago.
Fast forward to today. Car has been running great with no problems.. until I was on my way home and at a stop light it started misfiring. Using Dash Command on my phone, it indicated Cylinder #7 to be misfiring. I figured it might be something dumb like a loose spark plug (has OTVC setup, so wires are good) or something of the likes.
Idling in the driveway and I notice an awful smell and a bit of smoke, but its cold so I just assume its normal for this time of year. Shut the car off for a bit to do some reading and return a short while later only to find nothing obviously wrong. I then thought maybe the opti was taking a dump or having issues with the heavy fog this morning.
So I start it up again and it idles like ****. I notice a pillar of white smoke behind me and shut the car off. Talk to my dad a bit and go to show him whats going on. Attempted to turn the car over only to be greeted with an all to familar BANG! but not as loud as the one in 2008 (oddly enough, I parked in the same spot in the driveway where this same thing happened...) Obviously the motor is now hydro-locked
To verify my assumption, I check the radiator (empty) and pop the oil fill cap off (looks like phlegm). Unless I'm overlooking things here, I think its the passenger side HG which may also be the same side this happened to 54k miles ago.
So my options are:
1) Burn the car to the ground and move on with life ![Razz](http://www.njfboa.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
2) Bring it to a mechanic and probably pay around $1500+ ![Evil or Very Mad](http://www.njfboa.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_evil.gif)
3) DIY
Tempted to do it myself ![Nod](http://www.njfboa.org/forums/images/smilies/nod.gif) I've pulled the intake off, did the exhaust, upgraded brakes, etc. so I consider myself mechanically inclined, but this would be a whole new level.
I've read quite a few threads and stuff about the basic removal and what not. But a few questions remaining I haven't found solid answers for yet include:
1) Can this be done on the car without dropping/pulling the motor?
2) How do you clean all that nasty sludge/phlegm-like stuff out?
3) How can I be 100% its the HG and not like a random hole in the water jacket? (ruling out all possibilities)
I'm sure I'll come up with other questions...
Sorry for the long post
__________________
1997 Camaro Z28 - 355 LT1, T56, CC503, LTs, ORY, Bald Eagle-back exhaust, !emissions, Lingenfelter CAI, EWP, !CAGS, BMR LCAs, UMI PHB, Koni Str.t/Koni SA, C5 Z06 front / LS1 F-body rear brake swap, factory hurst with short stick
2014 2LT Cruze 2.0 Turbo Diesel
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11-12-2014, 08:15 PM
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#2
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Mongo the Meet Coordinator
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 16,899
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Start by doing a pressure test of cooling system, and then verify that a HG is leaking.
If it is, personally I would do both HG but thats me. Its doable without taking the motor out, but since you don't strip it down to hot tank the block you will never have it completely clean. You can try to fix it, and cycle oil out of the engine frequently till you are confident its cleaned up. If you caught it soon enough and don't have a bent rod I would say just R&R HG is fine.
When you do pull the heads, check each piston at TDC to make sure you didn't shorten anything. I would recommend ARP head bolts and a quality HG set. Get everything as clean as possible and have your heads checked for straightness. Toss a straight edge on the block as well. Stock head bolts call for TTY so you will need an angle torque wrench, or use ARP which use a straight torque spec.
If you can follow bolt torque sequences and can work in odd angles its most def doable.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirkEvil
repo bigals turd gen and part it out to a loving home
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11-13-2014, 04:43 AM
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#3
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Delran
Posts: 6,785
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well if you go for option 3, to fix it and its too far gone to fix, then option 1 seems like a good option at that point and you've saved yourself 1500 bucks.
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11-13-2014, 05:30 AM
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#4
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NJFBOA Co-Founder
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: All up in your kool aid!
Posts: 12,235
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Head gaskets are more messy and time consuming than they are difficult. I would go with option 3.
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11-13-2014, 07:32 AM
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#5
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: milltown
Posts: 1,497
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they make engine cleaners. you run your 4.5-5qts of oil pour this stuff in, let engine get to operating temp and it cleans out the engine for cases like this. or your can run a quart of ATF instead of a quart of oil with the same procedure. naturally you dont want to run this stuff any longer than needed so drain and new oil and filter goes in right after you are done. i also changed my oil after 100mi after the flush
i did this with my brand new motor when the intake gasket blew to improper mating of the aftermarket intake to the new heads. LT!Blow, basically summed it up. obv working on a 4thgen is never comfortable but it is a pretty strait forward job.
__________________
2002 Camaro Sunset Orange Mettalic, V6, 5spd, bilstein HD shocks and struts, eibach pro lowering kit, eibach f/r sway bars, lakewood PHB, UMI 2 point subframe connectors, energy suspensions poly master bushing kit
daily econobox and first car
1986 IROC-Z, T56, MGW shifter, Heads, Cam, Holley Stealth Ram 350, t-top, tubular LCA with relo brackets, adjustable PHB, belltech sway bars, ground control weight jacks, SLP mid length headers, 3in w/borla XR1, RIP 3 10 bolts, 12.7 @ 109 so far.. atleast its faster than stock SOLD
1971 Camaro LS3/T56/9in, cam only and still carbed, RIP 2 10 bolts, 11.62@121
03 Blazer 2 door - salt sponge
Last edited by redsoxsstink; 11-13-2014 at 07:34 AM.
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11-13-2014, 07:47 AM
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#6
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Admin.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamilton, NJ
Posts: 20,150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redsoxsstink
they make engine cleaners. you run your 4.5-5qts of oil pour this stuff in, let engine get to operating temp and it cleans out the engine for cases like this. or your can run a quart of ATF instead of a quart of oil with the same procedure. naturally you dont want to run this stuff any longer than needed so drain and new oil and filter goes in right after you are done. i also changed my oil after 100mi after the flush
i did this with my brand new motor when the intake gasket blew to improper mating of the aftermarket intake to the new heads. LT!Blow, basically summed it up. obv working on a 4thgen is never comfortable but it is a pretty strait forward job.
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that flush crap opens up every leak in site and dislodges every piece of dirt inside that engine. if the bearings are not already shot a flush job will finish them.
drain the pan, change the filter. get it running up the temp, stop, change oil & filter again. Do it a few times. Use cheap oil if you want to save a bit.
__________________
Vent Windows Forever!
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand. Or so I have read.
Feather-light suspension, Konis just couldn't hold. I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors.
Hey everybody, it's good to have you on the Baba-too-da-ba-too-ba-ba-buh-doo-ga-ga-bop-a-dop
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11-13-2014, 08:35 AM
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#7
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^^^Lover of bad cars^^^ Meet Coordinator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Whitehouse Station
Posts: 2,255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonzoHansen
that flush crap opens up every leak in site and dislodges every piece of dirt inside that engine. if the bearings are not already shot a flush job will finish them.
drain the pan, change the filter. get it running up the temp, stop, change oil & filter again. Do it a few times. Use cheap oil if you want to save a bit.
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+1 to this
__________________
1986 Honda VFR750 - 89.3HP to the wheel
2000 Trans Am M6 - Mods: Yes.
2018 Durango R/T - AFE Intake, JLT Catch Can, Stainless Works Catback, Vinyl Dodge Racing Stripes
2003 Toyota Matrix XRS M6 - Lol
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11-13-2014, 09:28 AM
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#8
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: milltown
Posts: 1,497
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the motor was gone through fairly recently, with freq oil changes it should be pretty clean. just stating what i have done. or if that flush stuff doesnt make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, you could use diesel too.
__________________
2002 Camaro Sunset Orange Mettalic, V6, 5spd, bilstein HD shocks and struts, eibach pro lowering kit, eibach f/r sway bars, lakewood PHB, UMI 2 point subframe connectors, energy suspensions poly master bushing kit
daily econobox and first car
1986 IROC-Z, T56, MGW shifter, Heads, Cam, Holley Stealth Ram 350, t-top, tubular LCA with relo brackets, adjustable PHB, belltech sway bars, ground control weight jacks, SLP mid length headers, 3in w/borla XR1, RIP 3 10 bolts, 12.7 @ 109 so far.. atleast its faster than stock SOLD
1971 Camaro LS3/T56/9in, cam only and still carbed, RIP 2 10 bolts, 11.62@121
03 Blazer 2 door - salt sponge
Last edited by redsoxsstink; 11-13-2014 at 09:32 AM.
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11-13-2014, 10:59 AM
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#9
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NJFBOA Co-Founder
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: All up in your kool aid!
Posts: 12,235
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Oil is plenty to rinse through the engine. No need to thin it with diesel or additives.
The diesel trick isn't uncommon for heavy equipment and commercial diesels that run very thick oil and lots of it so it dilutes quickly. On a gas engine that only holds 5 quarts and runs such light weight the same trick would add a particulate scrub while further thinning the oil. This is a dangerous combination for an engine with some miles on it.
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11-13-2014, 11:26 AM
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#10
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Meet Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: brick/pt. pleasant beach
Posts: 19,341
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You blew a head gasket on a motor that had previously blown a head gasket. You think its the same head gasket that went bad. You previously hydro-locked the motor and bent a rod. You believe you hydro-locked it again. You want to replace the blown head gasket only?
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11-13-2014, 11:41 AM
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#11
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^^^Lover of bad cars^^^ Meet Coordinator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Whitehouse Station
Posts: 2,255
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I would check the heads/block to make sure they are straight before doing the head gaskets...
__________________
1986 Honda VFR750 - 89.3HP to the wheel
2000 Trans Am M6 - Mods: Yes.
2018 Durango R/T - AFE Intake, JLT Catch Can, Stainless Works Catback, Vinyl Dodge Racing Stripes
2003 Toyota Matrix XRS M6 - Lol
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11-13-2014, 11:51 AM
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#12
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Meet Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: brick/pt. pleasant beach
Posts: 19,341
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The block won't be straight, the deck height is off from the factory. I would certainly look into getting both heads shaved down to straighten them and without a doubt use ARP hardware.
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11-13-2014, 11:57 AM
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#13
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Admin.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamilton, NJ
Posts: 20,150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider
You blew a head gasket on a motor that had previously blown a head gasket. You think its the same head gasket that went bad. You previously hydro-locked the motor and bent a rod. You believe you hydro-locked it again. You want to replace the blown head gasket only?
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ouch, didn't know that. If it really locked this time I'd pull the motor.
__________________
Vent Windows Forever!
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand. Or so I have read.
Feather-light suspension, Konis just couldn't hold. I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors.
Hey everybody, it's good to have you on the Baba-too-da-ba-too-ba-ba-buh-doo-ga-ga-bop-a-dop
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11-13-2014, 12:03 PM
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#14
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Meet Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: brick/pt. pleasant beach
Posts: 19,341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonzoHansen
ouch, didn't know that. If it really locked this time I'd pull the motor.
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If I read his post correctly, yes.
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11-13-2014, 12:52 PM
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#15
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Brick, NJ
Posts: 1,868
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I read it that way too Adam. If it hydrolocked again you might as well pull it and at least go through everything
__________________
Formerly known as blk95formula
86t/a_ram_air on TGO
2018 Silverado 1500
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11-13-2014, 06:33 PM
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#16
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: NNJ
Posts: 1,489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider
The block won't be straight, the deck height is off from the factory. I would certainly look into getting both heads shaved down to straighten them and without a doubt use ARP hardware.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider
You blew a head gasket on a motor that had previously blown a head gasket. You think its the same head gasket that went bad. You previously hydro-locked the motor and bent a rod. You believe you hydro-locked it again. You want to replace the blown head gasket only?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenformula92
I read it that way too Adam. If it hydrolocked again you might as well pull it and at least go through everything
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Above is the piston that came out. As you can see, the connecting rod is not very straight..
I think it was the same side as the misfire was detected on. Tmr I will pull the spark plug out and see if anything comes out of Cylinder #7. Last night I was in a bit of a panic as it is my DD and I don't currently have a spare, so I was thinking of a quick fix for now. However, transportation for the short term has been taken care of and I am on the hunt for a lease. It's too cold to play with the car now. I also want to do some more research before I tear the car apart.
I have been tossing the idea around of doing a h/c package for a while now, guess this is a sign I should get on that lol my thoughts are shipping out the heads for the LE2 package (they have to be checked anyway, right? ![Mr. Green](http://www.njfboa.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif) plus then the top end would be fresh) with a mild/street-able cam, something that'll push the car into the 12s. While the heads are away, I'd probably have the block checked and cleaned, although I am not sure how much that would be, maybe someone has a ballpark number? Figure new cam/main bearings (even though the current motor makes a good 22 psi hot idle and 42 psi at highway speed, based on dash gauge reading, not a mechanical gauge) unless that's overkill.
Weird thing about this whole situation is that the car went for 54k miles and just gave out, no indication this was coming lol
__________________
1997 Camaro Z28 - 355 LT1, T56, CC503, LTs, ORY, Bald Eagle-back exhaust, !emissions, Lingenfelter CAI, EWP, !CAGS, BMR LCAs, UMI PHB, Koni Str.t/Koni SA, C5 Z06 front / LS1 F-body rear brake swap, factory hurst with short stick
2014 2LT Cruze 2.0 Turbo Diesel
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11-13-2014, 06:50 PM
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#17
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Meet Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: brick/pt. pleasant beach
Posts: 19,341
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I'd go 355 on the bottom end with the stock crank polished up if it checks out. Decent rods and pistons, bump the compression up a little, do the top end like you are thinking, have a fun motor when you are done. Probably around $4k all said and done. Pick your end goal now and stick with it. Figure out what you want out of it, what you want it to do and when, and how much you can budget to it. There's several people here and on ls1lt1 that can give you great direction.
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11-14-2014, 06:57 AM
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#18
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Mongo the Meet Coordinator
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 16,899
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Establish budget and then its easy.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirkEvil
repo bigals turd gen and part it out to a loving home
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11-14-2014, 12:57 PM
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#19
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Brick, NJ
Posts: 1,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTb1ow
Establish budget and then its easy.
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the hard part is sticking to said budget
__________________
Formerly known as blk95formula
86t/a_ram_air on TGO
2018 Silverado 1500
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11-15-2014, 03:04 PM
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#20
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Delran
Posts: 6,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenformula92
the hard part is sticking to said budget
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this is why you do your shopping after the budgets established. putting together a parts list is the easiest way to snowball a project. set a number and do some heavy searching on the internet to find out whats the best products you can purchase that will get you at the end goal of being repaired ![Very Happy](http://www.njfboa.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif) lol I remember putting together lists of STUFF i want then looking at the number and being like
edit for censor
Last edited by NastyEllEssWon; 11-15-2014 at 03:06 PM.
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11-20-2014, 12:46 PM
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#21
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Sliderule / Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Catawissa PA
Posts: 2,294
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118K - if the rest of the car is in good shape and you want to keep it I'd pull it, build a new motor.
you could waste time and money fixing the gasket only to find you have more issues like bearings etc. Very odd to be blowing head gaskets.
__________________
93Z M6 Black: The 385 Lives! Supercharged, 3-core front mount intercooler, GTP heads, 3:73's, Street twin clutch, Jethot Longtubes, Mufflex 4" catback/spintech, S+W cage, Spohn Suspenion, Yada Yada Yada
1) Build it
2) Race it
3) Break it
4) Repeat!!!
Last edited by Pampered-Z; 11-20-2014 at 12:48 PM.
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11-21-2014, 01:58 AM
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#22
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Brick, NJ
Posts: 1,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pampered-Z
Very odd to be blowing head gaskets.
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I wouldn't call it odd. I have seen ALOT of LT1 motors with blown head gaskets. Odd after a rebuild....maybe. But not odd in general
__________________
Formerly known as blk95formula
86t/a_ram_air on TGO
2018 Silverado 1500
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03-23-2015, 10:43 AM
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#23
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: NNJ
Posts: 1,489
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With help from Jersey Mike and Chase (The3lite) we were able to pull the motor out this weekend with minimal breakage, actually went pretty smooth! Looks like a cracked head gasket at the end of the block by Cylinder #7 again. Crack is right in line with the coolant passages/bolt holes. Gaskets came off pretty clean. Will post pictures tonight.
__________________
1997 Camaro Z28 - 355 LT1, T56, CC503, LTs, ORY, Bald Eagle-back exhaust, !emissions, Lingenfelter CAI, EWP, !CAGS, BMR LCAs, UMI PHB, Koni Str.t/Koni SA, C5 Z06 front / LS1 F-body rear brake swap, factory hurst with short stick
2014 2LT Cruze 2.0 Turbo Diesel
Last edited by FlyingDutchman; 03-23-2015 at 10:44 AM.
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03-23-2015, 06:23 PM
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#24
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: NNJ
Posts: 1,489
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As promised, pictures. You may have a problem if coolant pours freely from your exhaust
Cylinder #7 - Note the gasket shape near the 5 o' clock position. The gasket was also partially in the bore around the 4 o' clock position ![Good Grief](http://www.njfboa.org/forums/images/smilies/facepalm.gif) Not sure on the gasket brand, but it seems pretty thick! Was same side as last time based on the cleanliness of the piston vs the rest of them
Block side of the gasket, you can see the deterioration/crack in line with the coolant passage/bolt holes.
Tried to get a close up shot of the head side of the gasket. Looks like a valve made a slight imprint on it. It also looks like the Dexcool was eating the gasket. Will be going green next time around.
__________________
1997 Camaro Z28 - 355 LT1, T56, CC503, LTs, ORY, Bald Eagle-back exhaust, !emissions, Lingenfelter CAI, EWP, !CAGS, BMR LCAs, UMI PHB, Koni Str.t/Koni SA, C5 Z06 front / LS1 F-body rear brake swap, factory hurst with short stick
2014 2LT Cruze 2.0 Turbo Diesel
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03-23-2015, 06:47 PM
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#25
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Meet Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: brick/pt. pleasant beach
Posts: 19,341
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Nice carnage
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