Great story...and ironic.

[BigAls87Z28]

His values? ******** ON THAT!
He was voting because Nissan's North American HQ is in Tenn.
His values should be American values. Letting American car companies fail as he lets the Asian automakers come to American, with massive tax breaks, huge advantages that none of the domestics have? Thats a "value".

[Frosty]

Then you can make the argument that the current administration was motivated to help GM and Chrysler due to the UAW being that they're VERY union friendly.

You're making ASSumptions. GM didn't deserve to bailed out, neither did AIG or any other company. How you can possibly justify a company ****ing up then being REWARDED ON OUR DIME IS BEYOND ME. Maybe if you looked at the big picture and stopped sucking the GM *** you'd understand. You're making ASSumptions that his motives had anything to do with Nissan. Al, you're a good guy man but you're f'in naive and I mean that with respect. I don't know how much Obama kool-aid you've consumed but you need to quit it, seriously.

We all know the previous guy was a ****tard but how you can justify half of what our current guy is doing is ridiculous.

[BigAls87Z28]

I dont know why that eveyrone assumes that I love Obama.
I am now a democrat, and I did vote for the man, but there are a lot of things I dont like about the guy.

I dont make assumptions, it is the truth. Did Nissian get millions of dollars in tax breaks by American goverments to allow them to produce vehicles here?
And you can ASSume that because the Republicans did not like the UAW, that they would sacrafice all of GM to bring them down?

Im looking at the biggest picture possible, America. As long as it wasnt thier state losing jobs, they didnt care. The senators and congressman that had GM plants in thier respective states stood up for GM, be it republican or democrat.
I never liked the UAW, and they were greedy. Their balls were inches away form the bandsaw, and they didnt flinch once. And these so called representives of the American people would have NO problem putting another few million people on the streets.

What happend was the best possible outcome for GM, and for America IMO. The companies were kept alive and people were allowed to keep thier jobs.
I did not agree with the blank-check writing that the past president did for the banks. But, these banks are back on thier feet now...at least some of them.

GM did not "fail", they were spending millions of dollars to reorganize themselves when the economy took a nose dive. Just a year before, GM was tauted as being quick and responsive with massive UAW consesions and huge strides to improve thier product mix. Cars like the Malibu and CTS were getting awards left and right, and in a few months, the return of the Pony Car, the Camaro, was coming.
Ford, at teh time, was called out on its risky move to mortgage thier entire company to hopefully have money to bring out some decent product. They hired an outsider with zero experience in the automotive field to be the CEO, and it looked like Ford would be in shambles soon enough.
But then the economy took a crap, GM could no longer secure lines of credit due to the banks dying every day and a massive credit crunch, and therefor could no longer fund its opperations.
Ford, on the other hand, had secured a line of credit and thats what they are currently living off. Thanks to Chrysler and GM's Chap 11 adventure, the UAW was pretty brused and batterd when Ford stepped up to the plate to negotiate massive changes for consessions.

[Frosty]

Dude....GM ****ing failed. They were losing billions of dollars per quarter and received our tax dollars to stop them from collapsing. They were rushed through bankruptcy court in record time by Uncle Sam and were propped up by said tax dollars.

If that isn't failure then I don't know what it is. You can spin it any way you want man but GM failed.....I love GM as much as you do but lets call a spade a spade. Massive government aid, Chapter 11=EPIC FAILURE.

They got fat and rich off of the SUV market and had NO sight for the future AT ALL...NONE ZIP ZILCH NADA. By the time they realized that it was too late...again, FAILURE on their part to see market trends.

As far as your tax break statement, yes Nissan and Toyota did receive tax breaks. Guess what? It employed people. Is it OK that the Big 3 shipped jobs to Mexico and Cana-duh? Don't DARE say yes. I'm all for protecting American companies but this supposed to be a free market and it's a global economy. Competition is at an all time high, especially now with so many companies cranking out quality cars. It's up to GM to keep up with the rest and if they can't oh well. Up until the last few years they haven't...is that the government's fault? Is that my fault? Is that your fault? NO, it's GM's fault. They produced average cars throughout their lineup with a few stellar cars. GM did NOTHING during the 90's and early 2000's to change their image, squash the stereotypes or lure people away from the Jap cars. Again, whose fault is that?

Like I said man, you can spin it any way you want to make GM look innocent or not as responsible as they are. The fact is they were on the brink of epic collapse...they failed...PERIOD. I hope that they can turn it around now that they have shed dead weight as far as vehicles and debt...things SEEM to be going well but the future remains to be seen. BTW, Chrysler isn't doing so hot....I guess that's lost money(BTW I don't recall you pushing for their bailout as much as GM's)

[BigAls87Z28]

GM made tons of mistakes, I will agree on that, and I would even say that even now there is a large mob inside GM that is fine with business as usual.

But, there were huge moves made by people inside GM. Im not spinning it, im reporting exactly what happend. GM was looking up, just read old reports.
Im not going to stand here and say that for the last several decades that GM let everything slip away. They made more stupid mistakes that have cost them market share, but I will not admit that they failed the way you say they did.
GM was trying to change as fast and as hard as possible. They were burning cash at an amazing rate, funding hybrid programs, compact car programs, and investing millions of dollars and thousdands of man hours into the Volt program.
The SUV's were the money makers, no doubt, and that money was needed to restructure the company.
Its not GM's fault that the banks failed to govern themselves after any and all regulation were stripped away after 8 years.
It sucks that GM had to be propped up by the goverment, but it was something that had to be done in order to save this country. Had we lost GM, this country would have fallen into a massive depression.
Suppliers would have fallen one by one, making it impossible to make vehicles in the US anymore without outside soruced parts.
It needed to be done. It sucks, but without it, we would have been in a serious world of ****.
Big 3 opened up plants in other parts of teh world to get away from the UAW, not to **** America over. Do you think that the import manufactures would build cars here in the US if they HAD to use union workers? No way.
They would have went to Canada and Mexico as well. GM is a global company, and they can and do make cars for certain parts of the world in certain places based on economies of scale.
How many plants are there in Mexico and Canada vs America? 1/3rd the number.
But, Canadian plants are known for some of the best quality out there, and thier work is cheaper not to mention that they have national health care which eliminates that cost.
GM makes two-three cars in Mexico. Some trucks, the HHR, and the new SRX.
GM has a lot of other plants in Mexico to make GM cars for Latin and South America.

Here is an example of a GM screw up.
GM makes the Astra in Mexico and Europe. Same car, two different plants, different powertrains, but the same car none the less.
In Mexico, its sold there as a Chevy.
In Europe, an Opel.
Where did GM import the Astra when they brought it here to the US for Saturn? Not the cheaper Mexico, but Europe.
Not that has any bearing on this conversation, but just a stupid move on GM's part.


I didnt agree with Chrysler because Chrysler had zero goals, plans, or products set in place to improve.
They threw together a few half-baked electric cars for car shows, but none will ever make production.
Chrysler had nothing at all to show any sort of case for a cash infusion.
They were failures. They still havent shown a single stride to improve its line up. Every chrysler vehicle is a total failure in its segment, with poor quality, design, and engineering.
Only stars in the line up are the Ram trucks and half of the Jeep line up. Cerbrus showed no signs of trying to make a car thats worth it. They just wanted the money to fund thier lost from buying Chrysler.
IMO, the goverment gave Fiat several million dollars to buy Chrysler.

[NastyEllEssWon]

ford didnt take any money

[BigAls87Z28]

Cause they mortgaged the whole company to give themselves money because as of 2 years ago, they were dead in the water with the oldest and worst line up of teh Big 3.
A Fusion that lacked every way possible, the Focus which cost Ford more money to redesign then it would have to retool the plants to make the Euro Focus here in the US, a HUGE truck line up that lacked decent powertrains, The Ford 500/Taurus which was uglier then ever. Crown Vic fleet special, not to mention the disaster of Linc and Merc lines.
Ford wasnt spending money, GM was, and Chrysler was lost in the woods. The music stopped, and at that point we saw who was caught with thier pants down.
Ford's desperate attempt at piling up cash was a poor move 2 years ago, but somehow they come out looking like gold.
The only reason GM went to the goverment for cash is because the banks werent giving it out

[Frosty]

Again Al you're missing the point. GM "was looking up" doesn't negate the fact that they failed....and failed hard. They could produce the best cars in the world...but product is only part of the entire business model.

They ran the company into the ground. You're probably right about building plants in other countries due to the UAW but they still ****ed over the American worker you care so much about. We were wrong for giving Nissan and other Jap companies tax breaks to employ people but GM gets a free pass for destroying towns by packing up and moving? So GM should have been bailed out but Chrysler shouldn't have? Both have precious American jobs that you claim to care so much about but the Chrysler American workers weren't worthy? See the mess these bailouts can cause? You do it for one you do it for all....the GM worker is no more worthy of saving than the Chrysler job.

BTW, the credit crunch did hurt GM but NO bank in their right mind would lend to them $$ with their massive amounts of debt and their quarterly losses. They were like the family that has 7 maxed out credit cards but only need that 1 more to make everything right. I know if I was a bank I wouldn't have lent them a single dime.

You're an intelligent guy and keep up on your auto industry news but it simply amazes me how slanted you are and how you can so easily look at GM through rose colored glasses all the time. The fact is GM as a COMPANY is complete garbage. They make great products but can't run a company to save their lives. You can spin it any way you want about how things were supposed to get better and how Ford and Chrysler suck and blah blah blah. The fact is they were on the edge of the abyss and it took The Messiah and OUR tax dollars to supposedly save them. To call that anything other than failure is atrocious.

[transmaro93]

whoaa deff not ready all these posts... hahha... i did catch all saying" i dont know why you guys think i love obama"... we see those wallet sized photos of him in your wallet man... no denying it...

[BigAls87Z28]

DICK!!

I know that GM, as a company, is a failure. Internally they do some things that blow my mind on a daily basis, and then sometimes they squeek one by.

I should have given an alternative of Chrysler ending. I would have liked for Chrysler to be split up and sold at auction, or fund GM and Ford to take on the brands.
Chrysler shut down tons of plants anyway, laying off thousands of workers, and they have ZERO exciting product outside of the Challenger, and even that is selling at a fraction of what the Mustang and Camaro is selling.

Im gunna have a GM slant, but out of the Big 3, they had at the time the best product line up, they had the best alternative energy and powertrains available. Hell, Benz, BMW, Chrysler all purchased GM's 2-Mode system!!
GM's internal management still needs to be weeded out, and this guy Ed is the man to do it. The purging is gunna hurt big time, but it will make GM a better company.

[LTb1ow]

So can I sell you my GM shares Al?

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

GM did not "fail"

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

I know that GM, as a company, is a failure.

I'm confuzzled.

Like I said, I hope GM pulls through, we're all fans of the vehicles but lets not kid ourselves...a 5yr old with ADD could do a better job running things. Hopefully that changes.

On a side note I'm kicking myself for not buying Ford shares too when I was employed and had the expendable cash....I would have had a nice little nest egg.

[Blacdout96]

Just want to get in here before he ban hammer falls on this thread