Job application question

[Squirrel]

On an application where it asks you to voluntarily divulge your ethnic background should i fill it out even though im just a regular white guy?... i have a feeling i may be skipped over by a 'minority' with similar skills just because im not 'diverse'

[NastyEllEssWon]

those are completely voluntary and cant be held against you if you choose not to fill it out.




edit: as a matter of fact i dont think its legal to ask that question on a pre-employment app

[Squirrel]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

those are completely voluntary and cant be held against you if you choose not to fill it out.




edit: as a matter of fact i dont think its legal to ask that question on a pre-employment app

yeah it would be illegal, but its asking if i would voluntarily like to participate

[jims69camaro]

like it's stated, it's voluntary.

now, on to the subjective. if i got an app from a white guy who didn't fill it out, i would ask him why not. if he gave any kind of answer like you just did, i wouldn't hire them because they seem like they have a chip on their shoulder about affirmative action.

any information obtained from you about your ethnicity cannot be used. that means they cannot use that information either to hire or not hire you. questions like that are used to map out a person's character, though. so, if you decide to not fill it out, have a different reason than you thought if you did fill it out it would be used to not hire you.

you'll also find that most questions on a pre-emp app are open questions, as in they cannot be answered either 'yes' or 'no'. it's all information gathering, and that information is used to find out if you'd be an asset or a trouble maker.

[Teds89IROC]

I usually fill those out because like Jim said, they might question why I did not. Sure they say it will not determine whether you get hired or not but in reality you don't know for sure. If a firm is told they need to be more diverse then obviously ethnicity is a determining factor.

[NastyEllEssWon]

well if you let the fact that he didnt fill out it for whatever reasons he has interfere with your decision to hiring him then you are also breaking the law.

[//<86TA>\\]

I never answer those questions if they are voluntary. Why on earth does it matter what ethnicity you are? If you are qualified for the job, does your ethnicity make you more/less qualified?

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

well if you let the fact that he didnt fill out it for whatever reasons he has interfere with your decision to hiring him then you are also breaking the law.

DING.

...and affirmative action is complete and utter BS. Yes, lets fight discrimination with more discrimination. :woot:

[HeadlessNorseman]

Originally Posted by Frosty

DING.

...and affirmative action is complete and utter BS. Yes, lets fight discrimination with more discrimination. :woot:

I agree.

On the topic of it being illegal: Of course they cant use it officially. Who would? but that obviously will make a different depending on who is doing the hiring, racist or not. They just cant "say" why they really looked at your application or not

[ryanfx]

ok... since no one has really hit the head on the nail yet I'll go ahead and answer what actually happens:

I NEVER report what race I am when filling out applications to jobs, colleges, or scholarships. Many places will state a link "Why are we asking this?" below where they ask. It reads something like "to comply with federal regulations about equal opportunity for races.... yada yada" which essentially means "we need to hire x amount of minorities for every white person."

It is true there are laws in place which don't discriminate against you for putting that you are white, but there are also laws in place which ensure that they give jobs to X many minorities which in reality may or may not have deserved it, and in turn, takes up your spot. No they did not discriminate against you, but they unfairly gave your job to someone else because of their race when you deserved it.

so long story short they can't tell you no because you are white, but they can tell you no because they already said yes to someone else because they weren't white.

[Teds89IROC]

Originally Posted by ryanfx

ok... since no one has really hit the head on the nail yet I'll go ahead and answer what actually happens:

I NEVER report what race I am when filling out applications to jobs, colleges, or scholarships. Many places will state a link "Why are we asking this?" below where they ask. It reads something like "to comply with federal regulations about equal opportunity for races.... yada yada" which essentially means "we need to hire x amount of minorities for every white person."

It is true there are laws in place which don't discriminate against you for putting that you are white, but there are also laws in place which ensure that they give jobs to X many minorities which in reality may or may not have deserved it, and in turn, takes up your spot. No they did not discriminate against you, but they unfairly gave your job to someone else because of their race when you deserved it.

so long story short they can't tell you no because you are white, but they can tell you no because they already said yes to someone else because they weren't white.

Exactly

This is what I was getting at that if a place is told they need a certain number of minorities then your ethnicity is a determining factor. This can go even further in that if you do not fill out that section of the application then it will be known once you go in for an interview, so it really doesn't matter either way. Fighting discrimination with discrimination as Frosty said.

[jims69camaro]

Originally Posted by Teds89IROC

Exactly

This is what I was getting at that if a place is told they need a certain number of minorities then your ethnicity is a determining factor. This can go even further in that if you do not fill out that section of the application then it will be known once you go in for an interview, so it really doesn't matter either way. Fighting discrimination with discrimination as Frosty said.

while most of those responding here have some truth in their response, and some with a slight tilt toward racism, it is not permitted by law to hire or not hire based on race.

now, the whole reason why that little bit is down there on the app is that if the state or feds ever decide to check up on us, then we have proof that our hiring practices are not based on race, but on the ethnicity of the employment pool. if we have nothing but white guys working at a location, then we had better be able to back that up with those people actually applying for a job with us were all white. if there was one black person who applied, then we had better be able to supply another reason besides race as to why he was passed over. if one thousand black guys have applied and we hired the only five white guys who responded and filled out an app, then it is clear that we are not hiring based on the ethnicity of the employment pool - we are, in fact, hiring based solely on race.

as it says, your participation is voluntary. but those who do participate are not discriminated for or against based on their race. that little piece of info is for reporting purposes only. there is no hidden agenda there, guys.

now, if you're asking me if AffAct actually works - i'd have to say no.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

as it says, your participation is voluntary. but those who do participate are not discriminated for or against based on their race. that little piece of info is for reporting purposes only. there is no hidden agenda there, guys.

That's all well and good but you said yourself you'd ask a white guy why he didn't fill it out. Why wouldn't you ask a black why he didn't fill it out?

To be honest it's no anyone's business why someone didn't fill it out. So yes, it does matter, even by your own words you'd hold it against said person if you didn't hear the right answer.

[NastyEllEssWon]

the problem i have with it is the fact that you would bring up that factor at all in an interview. whether he VOLUNTARILY filled it out or not, its just something that SHOULD NOT be brought up in an interview at all. regardless if it weighs or not

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

the problem i have with it is the fact that you would bring up that factor at all in an interview. whether he VOLUNTARILY filled it out or not, its just something that SHOULD NOT be brought up in an interview at all. regardless if it weighs or not

Right. You should not ask.

No race
No age
No sexual oreintation
No Myspace/Facebook stalking

I would fill it out and be done with it though. Don't make waves.




Kind of off topic: I know a guy who filled out "African American" on his college applications even though he is very pale and looks Irish. Rutgers got really pissed off and offended when they finally saw him in person. He in turn got extremely pissed off and yelled at them about how he is from Johannesburg, South Africa and made a huge scene.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

while most of those responding here have some truth in their response, and some with a slight tilt toward racism,

i havent really gotten this from this thread. i hate how when someone attacks affirmative action that they have to be ''racist'' because if not then youll agree with it. AA is ftl. Best man for the job, regardless of race. if this is what the world is coming to then all interviews should be held in a remote sealed off identity room with voice distorter like they do on the americas most wanted for witnesses.

jims69camaro like it's stated, it's voluntary.

now, on to the subjective. if i got an app from a white guy who didn't fill it out, i would ask him why not. if he gave any kind of answer like you just did, i wouldn't hire them because they seem like they have a chip on their shoulder about affirmative action.

its illegal to bring to question up regardless what your feelings are about the persons personal beliefs. you sir are in the wrong even though its for the ''right'' reasons

[jims69camaro]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

its just something that SHOULD NOT be brought up in an interview at all. regardless if it weighs or not

i've got ten, maybe fifteen minutes to determine if you will gel with my current crew. you think i am not going to use everything within the lawi can to find out who you are? there are a whole lot of things that just shouldn't be, yet there they are. affirmative action is not only a detriment to the applicant, it goes way deeper than that. remember, there are a lot of applicants who hide things on their app and during the interview, so it's the interviewer's job to find out if there is anything under the surface or if the applicant looks as good as he is presenting himself.

yes, i said i would use his answer to my question as part of deciding whether to hire him or not. i never said i would use his race against him, tony. that is not splitting hairs, that is trying to find out who he is and if he would make a good addition to my team or not. i don't have a lot of time in an interview and my questions are broadly based enough to paint a fairly rough picture of who the applicant is. of course i am going to pick up on if something is left blank and there is nothing that says i can't ask him about that. he might not have seen it.

i'm out of the game, anyway. i just thought i would weigh in to give you one person's perspective. there really is no grand conspiracy. of course everything you say and do during the interview process is going to be put under a microscope. why give someone reason to suspect anything if there is nothing there? it's like yelling "bomb" on a plane or shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre...

once he signs the app i have to assume he is finished filling it out. not filling it out because you think it will be used against you is silly, by law no one can use your race as a determining factor. there is a whole science to hiring - that's why they have a personnel department (that and you would not believe how much time out of a day it takes to keep up on people's benefits).

to the OP: sorry your thread went a little wide of the target. it was necessary to fully state my position. there is no reason not to fill out that little box. it really won't be used to not hire you.

[NastyEllEssWon]

the only point that i have to Re-state is the fact that you Asked a question about it. It should Not be asked. The mere asking of the question is breaking the law on which that ''voluntary'' survey is built upon...your whole point is moot because its based upon the asking and answering of a question that had no business being asked.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

yes, i said i would use his answer to my question as part of deciding whether to hire him or not. i never said i would use his race against him, tony. that is not splitting hairs, that is trying to find out who he is and if he would make a good addition to my team or not. i don't have a lot of time in an interview and my questions are broadly based enough to paint a fairly rough picture of who the applicant is. of course i am going to pick up on if something is left blank and there is nothing that says i can't ask him about that. he might not have seen it.

In a way you are using race. If you're asking a white guy why he didn't fill it out his race is coming into play. If the white guy didn't feel comfortable filling it out due to his race then it's potentially opening up a can of worms? I understand where you're coming from, I've helped in hiring processes...to me leaving that question blank makes no difference to me...though I do understand why it's there.

[jims69camaro]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

with voice distorter like they do on the americas most wanted for witnesses.

that's funny. it very well may be where we are headed, though.

its illegal to bring to question up regardless what your feelings are about the persons personal beliefs. you sir are in the wrong even though its for the ''right'' reasons

not true. it is illegal to question someone on their race. it is not illegal to question someone on their thoughts on their race. two, completely different worlds. like i said before, i am not splitting hairs. my job as the interviewer is to find out if you will mesh with the people employed where you are applying. sure, there are some underhanded ways to trip someone up, but what i am most interested in is if you can reliably repeat what you wrote on the app. that, and some general behavioral questions, like what would you do given a certain situation, is what i limit the scope of interview to.

my interviewing practices have never been questioned and i feel i did a complete job whenever i interviewed someone. whether i was in the wrong or not would be for a jury to decide, should there ever be a need for it to go there. since there wasn't, i feel like i did a good job for the companies i worked for.

[jims69camaro]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

the only point that i have to Re-state is the fact that you Asked a question about it. It should Not be asked. The mere asking of the question is breaking the law on which that ''voluntary'' survey is built upon...your whole point is moot because its based upon the asking and answering of a question that *I feel* had no business being asked.

fixed.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

fixed.

well since law is relevant and the only thing that matters during a court case is the interpretation of said law one can argue that even referencing to the race related questionaire during the interview is bad practices. Its voluntary...not ''answer if you want but if you dont were gonna grille you about a subject not meant for an interview''.

[ryanfx]

OK to cap this thread: AA is FTL. best man wins regardless of anything.

I don't care if your white, black, blue, or purple. It's unfair for people to beat me or lose to me because of their race.

Eric - Just don't report it. If they claim you are a racist like jims69camaro would ask just remind them you are the alpha male and they are simply pawns in your game of life.

[/thread]

[procamaroz28]

job apps should not ever ask that , theres really no good reason for it...

[Squirrel]

Originally Posted by ryanfx

Eric - Just don't report it. If they claim you are a racist like jims69camaro would ask just remind them you are the alpha male and they are simply pawns in your game of life.

[/thread]

that is true, i am the most awesome person ive ever met