GM High Tech Performance and other mags to be disco'd

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by ar0ck

When I first got into the game, the whole reason I subscribed to them for a year was because they ran a 4-5 magazine spread on DIY upgrades for 3rd gens, this was probably back in 2002-2003.

True, they did run a lot more third-gen related stuff back then. First one I bought was because there was a maroon 87 that had a lot of work done to it. There were still articles about TPI and the like, a lot of LT1, and a growing number of LS1 articles because everyone was getting into the tuning.

Originally Posted by WayFast84

.... but I think the problem is that GM hasn't really made anything new that is affordable to an average car guy and the market has been topped out for these cars for a while.

That's you re-writing history. At the time when I started reading GMHTPM, the ONLY fun to drive cars available were $28-35k Camaros and Firebirds and 45-55k Corvettes. If you wanted affordable, you had to get a couple of year old LT1 Fbody, B-Body, C4, or god forbid something with TPI.
Throw in the occasional 3800SC Wbody cars, GM didn't make much else for 10 years (1992-2002)

Over the last 10 years, we have or had *takes deep breath*

Cobalt SS Supercharged
Cobalt SS Turbocharged
Ion Redline
HHR SS
Sky
Sky Redline
Solstice
Solstice GXP
G8
G8 GT
G8 GXP
Grand Prix GXP 5.3
Monte Carlo SS 5.3
Impala SS 5.3
CTS-V LS6, LS3, LS9
CTS VSport
XTS VSport
Regal GS
Corvette
Corvette Grand Sport
Corvette Z06
Corvette ZR1
Camaro
Camaro SS
Camaro ZL1
Camaro Z28
SS
Silverado SS
Trailblazer SS

Realized that the "non-affordable" fifth gen Camaro outsold the 4th gen almost 2-1, and it's only been on sale since 2010.

[WayFast84]

How much of the exposure of the new Camaro in Transformers is the reason for that? I'll consider the Camaro affordable in a v6 trim. What percentage of sales is the SS? ZL1? I consider about 8 of those cars affordable or "sensible" daily driven cars. You know the kind that are daily driven and the owner(probably a 20 something male) bolts on parts on the weekend? The demographic of these magazines.

[Jersey Mike]

Why'd ya leave out the LS2 CTSV?


Regardless of the side-debates, it sucks to see any part of our hobby die.
BLS, laminate me a copy of issue number 1 while you're at it!

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by WayFast84

How much of the exposure of the new Camaro in Transformers is the reason for that? I'll consider the Camaro affordable in a v6 trim. What percentage of sales is the SS? ZL1? I consider about 8 of those cars affordable or "sensible" daily driven cars. You know the kind that are daily driven and the owner(probably a 20 something male) bolts on parts on the weekend? The demographic of these magazines.

I'd say that the percentage of Camaros sold based on Transformers is lower than the percentage of Z28s sold this year to the rest of the Camaro line up.
Eight affordable fun to drive cars, either new or secondary sale, and GM doesn't have **** to offer? EIGHT CARS is not enough?!?!

A mag like GMHTPM covers the latest and greatest from GM. And while GM offered a lot of great affordable performance cars, like the eight you just said that GM does make, what did the magazine cover? $400 intake swaps onto LS1s, mega-budget turbo builds, basic exhaust or suspension work for the 4000th time, and MAYBE they do a cheap 5.3 build.

Considering average transaction price of any new car is around 30k, the SS is still in the realm of "affordable".
I don't see "20 somethings" with enough money to buy anything new off the lot. And if you want to pile onto your theory of "affordable" driving, who else is eating that market?
Ford has the Fiesta and Focus ST, ranging from 22-28k starting price. The new Mustang Turbo is going to be a great deal at 28k, but the GT starts at 32-33k (right next to the SS)
FCA has the 500 Abarth around 22k and a Challenger V6 at 27k or an RT for 30k.
Toyota has the GT86/FR-S that starts around 28k.
Subaru has the BRZ at 28k and WRX around 27k
Honda...nothing
Nissan...nothing

So let's just go ahead and say that GMHTP focused on the LS 4th gen crowd
once it hit the market and never let up. For the most part, they ignored everything else GM made before or after it.

Originally Posted by Jersey Mike

Why'd ya leave out the LS2 CTSV?


Regardless of the side-debates, it sucks to see any part of our hobby die.
BLS, laminate me a copy of issue number 1 while you're at it!

I fat-fingered it. LS2, not LS3.

[1320B4U]

Its also based on regional demographics..10 years past I saw a lot more civics/cobalts/etc, now in my area every young person has a jeep or full size truck, sport compacts just aren't as popular anymore (again where I live). Ration is at least 4-to-1 (suv/xover/pickup/ to compact in my town).

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Realized that the "non-affordable" fifth gen Camaro outsold the 4th gen almost 2-1, and it's only been on sale since 2010.

I think part what is being missed is the natural price creep of the market change. A greater percentage of today's youth grew up under the impression of American cars being crappy and seeing all the "performance" imagery of the sport compact scene. At the same time we saw those of us that grew up on cheap (second hand) muscle cars and big engines have aged to the point where many want and can afford something more refined and comfortable. The only correct response from GM and the other two was to evolve the muscle/pony car offerings to include features and ride quality that attracts adults. The side effect being that as we see more young people gravitate back to American muscle we will hear more grousing about price points for the new car and less acknowledgement of the domestic sport compact offerings.

Hopefully we see some kind of a shift back to a more entry level price point but I would guess that the name won't be Camaro, Mustang, or Challenger. If they go through back with entry level pony cars I would expect to see Nova, Falcon, and who knows from Dodge since they made the Dart a sport compact.

-Tim

[sweetbmxrider]

Nice performing cars like the cts, regal, chevy ss, or g8?

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

I'd say that the percentage of Camaros sold based on Transformers is lower than the percentage of Z28s sold this year to the rest of the Camaro line up.
Eight affordable fun to drive cars, either new or secondary sale, and GM doesn't have **** to offer? EIGHT CARS is not enough?!?!

A mag like GMHTPM covers the latest and greatest from GM. And while GM offered a lot of great affordable performance cars, like the eight you just said that GM does make, what did the magazine cover? $400 intake swaps onto LS1s, mega-budget turbo builds, basic exhaust or suspension work for the 4000th time, and MAYBE they do a cheap 5.3 build.

Considering average transaction price of any new car is around 30k, the SS is still in the realm of "affordable".
I don't see "20 somethings" with enough money to buy anything new off the lot. And if you want to pile onto your theory of "affordable" driving, who else is eating that market?
Ford has the Fiesta and Focus ST, ranging from 22-28k starting price. The new Mustang Turbo is going to be a great deal at 28k, but the GT starts at 32-33k (right next to the SS)
FCA has the 500 Abarth around 22k and a Challenger V6 at 27k or an RT for 30k.
Toyota has the GT86/FR-S that starts around 28k.
Subaru has the BRZ at 28k and WRX around 27k
Honda...nothing
Nissan...nothing

So let's just go ahead and say that GMHTP focused on the LS 4th gen crowd
once it hit the market and never let up. For the most part, they ignored everything else GM made before or after it.





I fat-fingered it. LS2, not LS3.

Great post Al, I think you nailed it.

Affordable is a relative term. As stated, 30k (or 29 something) is the average transaction price of a household vehicle these days.

Print is withering. That's a fact. GMHTP has/had trouble competing online because of enthusiast forums.

If they wanted to do anything they should go all-digital with the magazine and get very technical. Give verified expert level articles vs. sponsor whoring.

There are tons of how-to's for adding a lid and exhaust to an LS1 Camaro. Who needs another one? Show real custom work.

[Blackbirdws6]

Originally Posted by Jersey Mike

Why'd ya leave out the LS2 CTSV?


Regardless of the side-debates, it sucks to see any part of our hobby die.
BLS, laminate me a copy of issue number 1 while you're at it!

I can give you one next time I see you. Just remind me. I have a wallboard copy in my office on the wall.

[IROCZman15]

oh man! I just read this . crap, I get 4 of those magazines monthly (well CP 9 times a year).. im bummed out, sure the articles/coverage variety wasn't riveting much anymore.. but I always enjoy a paper magazine over a internet "magazine" site. bummer. I know I had multi year subscriptions pre-payed too..

[WayFast84]

Al, I agree with several points you made. 20 somethings generally don't have the money for these cars with the way of the economy and crazy student debt. While GM had those eight fun and practical cars I don't think the majority of people know about them or they just aren't appealing or stand out which is what car guys like. A great example of this would be to think back and remember the last GTO, Monte Carlo or Grand Prix you saw. I can't remember it but I can remember the last Corvette, Camaro and Trans Am I saw.

Not a big deal but the prices you listed are also way off. You can get BRZ's for 24k, the new WRX starts at 26k which is a hell of a deal.

I think Tim makes a great point about the rising cost of the industry in general and the price increase needed to make cars more luxurious and safe.

[LTb1ow]

I could buy a new SS or whatever, (granted I would rather a new 2500hd) but regardless, I would not modify a brand new car and void the warranty that I paid the heavy new price tag for. Furthermore, ever been to a car show with "modern" muscle cars? Its all the same stupid tacky mods and guys who have never raced their cars cept for out of the garage and to a show. The hope that 5th gens will gain value like muscle cars of old, is laughable.

Buying a new warranty intact muscle car seems stupid to then mod it to hell and back. Thats why they made cheap, disposable 4th gens to mod/ruin. Then again, I am getting old.

But back to car mags, yea their cool and all, but I think the advent of major internet car forums have put a large hole in the smoke/mirrors routine the car mags could get away with just blind sponsor promotions. Anyone with half a brain can google stuff and fact check how badly a car mag hyped up something etc. Case in point, the silly edlebrock "LT4 topend package", post up asking bout that and you all but get run out of town from people saying how dumb a purchase it is. But yet, countless magazines will push that along with their air gap intake (another documented loss of HP irl).. so I can see how the newer age of guys modding cars has shifted away from car mags.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

I could buy a new SS or whatever, (granted I would rather a new 2500hd) but regardless, I would not modify a brand new car and void the warranty that I paid the heavy new price tag for. Furthermore, ever been to a car show with "modern" muscle cars? Its all the same stupid tacky mods and guys who have never raced their cars cept for out of the garage and to a show. The hope that 5th gens will gain value like muscle cars of old, is laughable.

Buying a new warranty intact muscle car seems stupid to then mod it to hell and back. Thats why they made cheap, disposable 4th gens to mod/ruin. Then again, I am getting old.

But back to car mags, yea their cool and all, but I think the advent of major internet car forums have put a large hole in the smoke/mirrors routine the car mags could get away with just blind sponsor promotions. Anyone with half a brain can google stuff and fact check how badly a car mag hyped up something etc. Case in point, the silly edlebrock "LT4 topend package", post up asking bout that and you all but get run out of town from people saying how dumb a purchase it is. But yet, countless magazines will push that along with their air gap intake (another documented loss of HP irl).. so I can see how the newer age of guys modding cars has shifted away from car mags.

Bizzaro world is Bizzaro.

[sweetbmxrider]

4th gens weren't "cheap" when they came out.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

4th gens weren't "cheap" when they came out.

no but back then why would you mod a 4th gen when you can easily get a 3rd gen and slap a three fiddy in it its a cycle

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

no but back then why would you mod a 4th gen when you can easily get a 3rd gen and slap a three fiddy in it its a cycle

Exactly, some people don't seem to see it this way.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

Exactly, some people don't seem to see it this way.

thats true. ive seen quite a few really bad example of some beat to **** GTO's. kinda funny to see them kinda in the same territory as 4th gens in prices too

edit: give it a few more years and we'll start to see some really beat to hell 5th gens too

[WayFast84]

I've been seeing tons of 5th gens beat to piss with ridiculous mods like body colored 22's, obnoxious exhausts and light bars in the grille. Maybe it's because the warranty period for the first years are up now?

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by WayFast84

I've been seeing tons of 5th gens beat to piss with ridiculous mods like body colored 22's, obnoxious exhausts and light bars in the grille. Maybe it's because the warranty period for the first years are up now?

Probably because many people think they are too rich to care.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by WayFast84

I've been seeing tons of 5th gens beat to piss with ridiculous mods like body colored 22's, obnoxious exhausts and light bars in the grille. Maybe it's because the warranty period for the first years are up now?

It's because they are as big as the impallas and crown Vic's that the people into those mods used to be into.

[1320B4U]

^ True...although a nice 22" wheel does look good if its done tastefully in some setups.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

I could buy a new SS or whatever, (granted I would rather a new 2500hd) but regardless, I would not modify a brand new car and void the warranty that I paid the heavy new price tag for. Furthermore, ever been to a car show with "modern" muscle cars? Its all the same stupid tacky mods and guys who have never raced their cars cept for out of the garage and to a show. The hope that 5th gens will gain value like muscle cars of old, is laughable.

While you wouldn't, there is a huge market for those that want it done, and those people pay BIG money for it as well. Look at all the people that have their brand-new Corvettes shipped right from Bowling Green to performance shops to another $20-40k worth of stuff done to it.

The muscle car era was different and while the current class of performance vehicles easily outshines and outclasses anything made in the 60s to 70s, the purity of those cars is what makes the valuable. It's not the craftsmanship or the precise engineering that brings in the bucks, but the nostalgia of the era and what the cars meant to people.
When it comes to the Americans, we dug deep into that equity and came up with unoriginal copy-cats like the current Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger. Sure, they are great performance cars and are way more reliable than their counterparts of yore, but there is not a single original idea with any of them that makes an impact with people like the originals, like the Mustang did.
Same goes for the Beetle and Mini.

Buying a new warranty intact muscle car seems stupid to then mod it to hell and back. Thats why they made cheap, disposable 4th gens to mod/ruin. Then again, I am getting old.

All of this makes my head explode.

But back to car mags, yea their cool and all, but I think the advent of major internet car forums have put a large hole in the smoke/mirrors routine the car mags could get away with just blind sponsor promotions. Anyone with half a brain can google stuff and fact check how badly a car mag hyped up something etc. Case in point, the silly edlebrock "LT4 topend package", post up asking bout that and you all but get run out of town from people saying how dumb a purchase it is. But yet, countless magazines will push that along with their air gap intake (another documented loss of HP irl).. so I can see how the newer age of guys modding cars has shifted away from car mags.

It's not the smoke and mirrors but the fact that the information of how to mod cars has changed.
Years ago, before the dawn of the internet, the way information on how to modify cars was transmitted through magazines. This was the way that people from all parts of the country, and the world for that matter, could read about the latest carb or exhaust system for their muscle car.
Sure, they might be lucky to have a parts store in the area that could get them the stuff, and the counter guy is hopefully a "car guy", but there was no other way to get this and see what people are doing.

The internet took over this function with forums and message boards and now with blogs and websites devoted just to the art of car tuning.
It's ironic that a magazine who's focus was to be "high tech" totally missed out on going to a digital format or even changing the game all together when it came to how it could keep it's finger on the pulse of the modern GM performance car culture. And it's just one of many mags that are on the way out, so we can't just isolate GMHTPM but a whole slew of "enthusiast" magazines that just didn't retain the numbers to stay afloat.

Originally Posted by WayFast84

Al, I agree with several points you made. 20 somethings generally don't have the money for these cars with the way of the economy and crazy student debt. While GM had those eight fun and practical cars I don't think the majority of people know about them or they just aren't appealing or stand out which is what car guys like. A great example of this would be to think back and remember the last GTO, Monte Carlo or Grand Prix you saw. I can't remember it but I can remember the last Corvette, Camaro and Trans Am I saw.

A majority of people don't buy these cars, and they never will.
Don't forget that for every Chevelle SS LS6 sold, 4000 4-door straight-six models went out.

Beauty and appeal is in the eye of the beholder. A 67 GTO doesn't look all that different from a 67 Lemans, so you had to know about these cars to even understand what you were looking at in the first place.
I know exactly when I saw my last Pontiac Grand Prix GXP. It was making a left onto route 27 in Kendal Park last Tuesday. It had that dark pewter color and had chrome wheels.
Now, the GXP is not exactly my cup of tea, but I know the difference between that and a regular GT or even GTP. In fact, my interest is peaked a bit more when I see a car like that when compared to seeing just another 4th gen.

You can't discount or disqualify another car just because it doesn't fit into your spectrum of "cool". This narrow-minded focus is exactly what GMHTPM had because they thought they knew what was cool.

[coolmanvette75]

I think most of what you all have said about GMHTP over the past years is very accurate, but it was actually starting to come back around. Back in October GMHTP changed editors. Rick Seitz was moved to the main editor spot. I met Rick back in November at SEMA and talked to him a lot about the mag. He had a lot of plans to change the structure of the magazine to make it more appealing for a larger group of people. If you look at any of the mags made after he became the editor, you started to see a shift away from they typical stuff. There was a big increase in NON-LS tech and feature cars. I remember a few months back reading about a 700hp TPI car in there. Hell, their latest project car that they were going to start a build on before all of this happened was a Buick Grand National. Rick realized what people actually wanted to see, but the move was too little too late apparently. It really does suck because I was looking forward to seeing what else he had in store

[ThoR294]

Originally Posted by Blackbirdws6

I have a box of extras

gimmeh!!!